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Woman in Chains + Lyrics


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#1 Degana

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Posted September 16, 2020 - 11:47 AM

Is there any chance that anyone can finish off Woman in Chains by Tears for Fears.. There's already a release in the customs, but it doesn't have Lyrics.. and i think without the lyrics, you're missing the best part of the this song..

I know this is probably a difficult request, but i thought it was worth raising again. Please and thank you!

Cheers,

 

Degana



#2 Shroud

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Posted September 16, 2020 - 04:22 PM

Seconded :)

#3 budokagamer

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Posted September 17, 2020 - 08:58 AM

yes please!!!



#4 BornGamerRob

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Posted September 18, 2020 - 04:27 AM

I'd be happy to, but that author has not been on the scene for some time now. I had worked on the vocals for Superman on his Stereophonics custom (also fixed the drums), but he hasn't responded for what's been a couple years now. And I won't post other people's work under my name (which is why Superman remains only with me); just doesn't feel right to me. He's a REALLY nice guy too so even more reason I wouldn't post over his work. But ya, love that song and Oleta Adams voice is spectacular with Roland Orzabal and Curt Smith.


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#5 Shroud

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Posted September 18, 2020 - 05:29 AM

I'd be happy to, but that author has not been on the scene for some time now. I had worked on the vocals for Superman on his Stereophonics custom (also fixed the drums), but he hasn't responded for what's been a couple years now. And I won't post other people's work under my name (which is why Superman remains only with me); just doesn't feel right to me. He's a REALLY nice guy too so even more reason I wouldn't post over his work. But ya, love that song and Oleta Adams voice is spectacular with Roland Orzabal and Curt Smith.

 

Why would you need to post it to a separate database entry? You can send your upgraded version to the admins/moderators and ask them to attach it to the original database entry for example under "other downloads". Or in the worst case, if even the admins aren't responding, you can just share a Google Drive link to a comment under the original database entry, if you have some room to spare from Google Drive. I don't think it would be disrespectful to the original author, since it's under the original database entry, everyone would clearly see that you just did the fix/addition but not the rest of the charting.



#6 BornGamerRob

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Posted September 18, 2020 - 05:50 AM

Why would you need to post it to a separate database entry? You can send your upgraded version to the admins/moderators and ask them to attach it to the original database entry for example under "other downloads".


That seems weird. Not sure I'd want an admin to attach things to my customs. So I wouldn't do that. I don't think that is a practice here.
 

Or in the worst case, if even the admins aren't responding, you can just share a Google Drive link to a comment under the original database entry, if you have some room to spare from Google Drive. I don't think it would be disrespectful to the original author, since it's under the original database entry, everyone would clearly see that you just did the fix/addition but not the rest of the charting.

Most admins know me, and I know most admins. It's not a matter of responding, it's a matter of respect for the original author. I wouldn't want to post in the comments and direct people to another entry. The best practice here is to post your own version if there is going to be two. You can upcycle, but you should credit the original author if posting your own. I'm just saying, in order to do that, I'd actually have to DO my own version since I personally don't like to use other people's work (who aren't actively collaborating with me) and release it under my name. I'm happy to offer the vocals to someone else to do that with, but it just won't be under my name.


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#7 Shroud

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Posted September 18, 2020 - 06:39 AM

Just do what you want, of course.  :)

 

I would always ask the original author before adding anything, but I would not post my own separate version to the database in any case, and it's hard for me to believe it's considered best practice, because all the download statistics would then be grabbed by the person who upgraded and reposted. It might be different if the "upgrader" actually modified the other instruments, but here we're talking about straight adding a missing instrument right? So everything else is still as the original author made it. My point is, if you only added Vocals or Pro Keys to "Woman in Chains" and reposted it as your own (properly crediting markmc for the original work), I would download YOUR version and MAYBE notice the crediting but eventually I would not be downloading from HIS entry and probably end up thinking how good is BornGamerRob at charting Tears for Fears and not markmc. That's because there would be no reason to choose his version over yours, if everything else is the same. Modifying an existing chart does create an alternative however, and is worth its own separate entry.

 

By the way, I never download incomplete customs, at least I don't download customs which are missing a legacy instrument (I make exceptions for missing Pro Keys or harmonies). Obviously that's just me, I know a lot of people just play one instrument and don't care for full-band customs. Most markmc customs are unfortunately missing instruments. The result is, I am not playing any markmc's customs. If someone adds Vocals to "Woman in Chains", that would mean I would be playing markmc's customs and probably end up having a good opinion of him as a charter...

 

It's up to you to decide what would be a better way to respect the original author, between leaving his near-complete work untouched or help it find more people to play it.

 

PS Contacting an admin for posting customs upgrades is not something I made up myself, I am sure I just read it around the forums, and it should be intended only for authors who are long gone and not responding anymore, of course it's not something to consider for authors that are still around! So if you know that markmc is in fact still around, then he should certainly be involved.



#8 Shroud

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Posted September 18, 2020 - 06:46 AM

I wouldn't want to post in the comments and direct people to another entry.

 

By the way my suggestion was exactly NOT to have another entry in the database! But instead either have the Admin put an extra download link in the original entry, or a direct download to a Google Drive or MediaFire link in a comment under the original entry. So people who searched "Woman in Chains" would see only one in the database.



#9 BornGamerRob

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Posted September 19, 2020 - 12:28 AM

Let me be more simple. Here's what I understand after being around here awhile now:

 

1. If you upcycle. YOU take the parts that are the authors (via CON conversion methods I will not go into detail about). You start with the authors custom and then add YOUR OWN parts. You compile that, upload to your account and credit the author for their original work. This will create TWO entries in the database. But that is how it is supposed to work. An admin, or me or anyone else shouldn't be posting on another authors custom. I have never heard of this so an admin can correct me if I'm wrong since there is nothing explicitly stated.

 

You will notice two entries for REM's Imitation of Life. One of those is mine, the other is another authors. I did NOT use the original authors work because A ) they wanted me to contribute most of the work to their track B )  it was missing stuff in the tracks that were there that I wanted to cover. So I did my own version and posted it. This is the standard method.

 

2. Posting in comments and linking out to another version doesn't seem appropriate. I'm not talking about another entry in this particular database, I'm just talking about promoting MY work (regardless if there is the original author's work too) under someone else's work and diverting them elsewhere. Again, I have never seen anyone do that, nor would I do that.

 

There. Hope that helps clarify my thoughts on working on idle authors. And again, if someone else wants to go through whatever process you're referencing, I would be happy to lay down the vocals for it.


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#10 Shroud

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Posted September 19, 2020 - 06:49 AM

If that's the rule, it must be followed, but IMO it's terrible for the original author.

Let me tell you how I would feel if instead of being the updater I was the original author.

For instance all my (very few, so far) customs are full band but do not have Pro Guitar. Someone decides to add Pro Guitar to one of my customs e.g. Cosmic Girl but cannot ask me first because I was away for long. I come back and see one of the following:

1) There is a second Cosmic Girl entry in the database with Pro Guitar. It doesn't use my chart. That's totally ok. I might be a bit sad that now everyone downloads the more complete version but that's only fair if it's better.

2) There is a second Cosmic Girl entry in the database with Pro Guitar, and it uses my charts for the other instruments. This will piss me off to know end! Even if there is a line crediting me for 90% of the job, the new entry is under someone else's name. Many people will not remember the credits, only the uploader. This to me is a gross misappropriation of work without consent.

3) Someone has posted a link in a comment under my Cosmic Girl entry, to download a version that's identical plus Pro Guitar. It would not bother me at all, because people are still coming to my page to download it.

Besides all this, since I would certainly consent to someone adding Pro Guitar to my customs, in case 3) I would offer the upcycler to actually have their version replace mine, and add very clear credits for their addition. In case 2) I would sue them for copyright infringement.

No that's not true :) of course I would not sue anyone. But I would definitely feel I had been robbed, and I would probably not share my future charting work again.

#11 BornGamerRob

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Posted September 19, 2020 - 10:06 PM

I don't think that makes much sense. Who cares if they're coming to your page, they are still doing basically #2 with more hassle. AND it's even worse since when they search the database for songs that have ProGuitar, that one wouldn't show up. It would be only by chance that they would stumble across the other one. Which is why two entries is the preferred method for upcycling. If you searched for something and it only had guitar listed, you'd bolt. However, by your method, there would be a secret version hiding out in the comments that had full band. But most won't bother since they can see it has limited charting in it initially.

 

And you aren't getting "credit" for anything, they are playing another person's version of your custom. By not being around, it's basically implied consent that you no longer care what happens to your custom anyway; therefore, why would you care if they are visiting another charters version? (which rarely happens anyway - upcycle is typically not about adding the ProGuitar/Bass to a custom) If you come back, you could work with the other author to integrate their work in your custom and then take down their work. That would be on you for abandoning your post. Most would never take 90% of someone else's work and post it. There has to be a significant reason to upcycle it (this happened with people adding venues and then posting their own version - that is a no no and that would fall into the same category as you mentioned above).


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#12 Shroud

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Posted September 20, 2020 - 09:01 AM

Ok fine, I will try my best to abide by the rules. It doesn't encourage me much to share my instruments additions to existing customs however, because now I am scared.

 

But this:

 

AND it's even worse since when they search the database for songs that have ProGuitar, that one wouldn't show up. It would be only by chance that they would stumble across the other one. Which is why two entries is the preferred method for upcycling. If you searched for something and it only had guitar listed, you'd bolt. However, by your method, there would be a secret version hiding out in the comments that had full band. But most won't bother since they can see it has limited charting in it initially.

 

 

well I really thought you can change the included instruments in your database entry, so that if someone (or myself) adds Pro Guitar later on, I can CHANGE this info in the entry and it shows up correctly in searches. Is it so that you CAN'T change the indication about what instruments are included? Are you stuck with the info at the time you first uploaded the custom? That's a bummer!



#13 BornGamerRob

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Posted September 20, 2020 - 07:42 PM

You can change the info on YOUR entry. But if it's your entry and someone else is posting a link to another custom, that point doesn't matter much. Your entry would stay the same.


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#14 Degana

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Posted September 21, 2020 - 12:44 AM

Woah, didn't mean to prompt that much discussion... heh.. I just wanted to sing the pretty song.



#15 BornGamerRob

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Posted September 21, 2020 - 05:08 AM

It's good conversation and shows just how complicated it can become to upgrade another author's custom. Sorta why I do full band (at least legacy instruments) customs. If I did partials I'd probably just make a thread and put the thing up for grabs for anyone who wanted to take it to full band, like some have.


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