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Timing Issue..


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#1 Guido

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Posted May 9, 2020 - 10:22 AM

Hi All

I have a track I am authoring with a few hits/ lead-in on the TOMS before the song properly starts.

These TOM hits I have authored are prior to measure 3.1

 

The song compiles in MAGMA fine but when played in game - the timing is wrong with these lead-in TOM gems appearing BEFORE the song has started... MUST the track start at measure 3.1... regardless of lead-in from TOMS...?

 

note : I have also ensured the 'play' marker on the DRUM track is positioned prior to the TOM hits but this makes no difference...?

 

Thanks in advance...

 

 


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#2 beard216

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Posted May 9, 2020 - 03:20 PM

Yeah if it's playable notes, it's gotta be at 3.1


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#3 akaisenshi

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Posted May 9, 2020 - 07:21 PM

What I usually do in this situation is make the drum lead-in start before the next whole measure after 3.1 (i.e start them at 3.3 and then the song picks up at 4.1). It's best to start the tempo map with this in mind though. If the song is a medium-fast BPM the notes must start by at least 3.1, if your song has a really slow BPM, you might be able to go before 3.1. I think the specific reason is that Magma requires a certain amount of time (3 seconds?) before the song starts.



#4 FujiSkunk

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Posted May 9, 2020 - 08:59 PM

The (audio) track can start at any time you want, even at the very beginning.  If you have lead in notes before the first beat #1 of the song, position the track accordingly.

 

Gems do not have to start at 3.1.  Many slow songs have gems starting at 2.1 so that players aren't twiddling their thumbs waiting for a slow count-in.  The hard limit is based on time: you can't have any gems before 2.45 seconds from the beginning.  If your lead in before 3.1 is still more than 2.45 seconds in, you're good.  But in any case, always make sure the audio of the song lines up with the notes being played.  If that's the case in REAPER, it'll be the case in-game (unless you've messed up something really exotic, but that almost never happens... almost).



#5 Guido

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Posted May 10, 2020 - 05:58 AM

So I had the lead-in prior to 3.1....

 

.. my song is 142 BPM - I have now inserted a new 142 BPM 'measure' at 3.1, (to avoid messing the tempo map up).

The TOMS lead-in starts at 3.3 / and the song begins at 4.1

 

When I play the visualizer the song plays as expected with the lead-in and song start in-sync .... I have compiled it and

run it on the console (using a new CON file suffix so I know I am using the newly generated file) but the DRUM gem chart is not in-sync with the audio...?

(I only have the drum track charted)..

 

FujiSkunk : ".....always make sure the audio of the song lines up with the notes being played.  If that's the case in REAPER, it'll be the case in-game (unless you've messed up something really exotic, but that almost never happens... almost)............."

 

They do of course line up. But can you elaborate on the above..? Perhaps I have something exotic going on here....(!)


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#6 Spindoctor

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Posted May 10, 2020 - 06:39 AM

Magma can be the culprit as well with these type issues.

Several times I have had the out of sync problems when all looks well.

I just had this issue recently & a new magma project file solved the problem after trying several times with the original Magma project files.

It's worth a try  :D


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#7 Guido

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Posted May 10, 2020 - 07:43 AM

Magma can be the culprit as well with these type issues.

Several times I have had the out of sync problems when all looks well.

I just had this issue recently & a new magma project file solved the problem after trying several times with the original Magma project files.

It's worth a try  :D

 Thanks for the suggestion - tried that... no difference for me....

 


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#8 Shroud

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Posted May 10, 2020 - 08:38 AM

I believe that the idea of starting a song at 3.1 is motivated by giving time for the players to prepare, a few seconds to look at the empty highway scrolling to get a sense of the tempo before having to hit any notes. Passive count-in is put before 3.1.

With that in mind, if anyone (in this case the drummer) is asked to play notes, then those notes should not be placed before 3.1 in any case. Move the whole song forward instead so that also those toms are after 3.1.

A similar case is if you want an active count-in, i.e. if you want the drummer or someone else to play the count-in. I would still put 2 empty measures before that, so this count-in played by someone starts at 3.1. This is rather theoretical because I haven't seen it used anywhere.

Bottom line: starting a bit too late is acceptable, starting too early is very annoying.

#9 Buster66

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Posted May 10, 2020 - 02:06 PM

Re: out of sync. Try rendering the audio again and make sure Magma is pointing at the right .wav.



#10 FujiSkunk

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Posted May 12, 2020 - 03:02 PM

With that in mind, if anyone (in this case the drummer) is asked to play notes, then those notes should not be placed before 3.1 in any case. Move the whole song forward instead so that also those toms are after 3.1.

 

I would disagree.  There are plenty of examples where songs and gems start before 3.1, including in official DLC.  I agree the song should not start "too soon" to give players a feel of the tempo, but too much dead space before the song can throw off the feel as well.  Adhering to Magma's hard limit of 2.45 seconds is good enough, I believe.



#11 rubydanger

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Posted May 12, 2020 - 03:28 PM

I'm with Fuji, even in one of my tutorial videos, I have a song that starts before 3.1 with a synth lead-in.  As long as the count-in reflects it and there is enough time for all to be ready.


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#12 Guido

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Posted June 15, 2020 - 04:03 PM

I am doing a song with 198 BPM... yep! :P

Consequently, the gems start at 2.42 seconds into the song, and not the minimum (required by Magma) of 2.45 seconds... how do I get around this...?


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#13 Shroud

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Posted June 15, 2020 - 05:24 PM

I am doing a song with 198 BPM... yep! :P

Consequently, the gems start at 2.42 seconds into the song, and not the minimum (required by Magma) of 2.45 seconds... how do I get around this...?

 

How about putting an extra empty measure at the beginning, before the count-in?



#14 Guido

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Posted June 15, 2020 - 05:38 PM

 

How about putting an extra empty measure at the beginning, before the count-in?

I did exactly that - so the song started at 4.1 - however, this gave me the same Sync problems mentioned at the start of the thread... -_- 


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#15 Shroud

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Posted June 16, 2020 - 08:50 AM

I did exactly that - so the song started at 4.1 - however, this gave me the same Sync problems mentioned at the start of the thread... -_-

 

In general I do not expect that delaying gems or moving the audio track forward would cause any problem. FujiSkunk told us that the only limitation is the minimum 2,45 seconds before playable notes, so I would guess that moving forward is the way to avoid such problems.

 

Now I noticed that you mentioned you inserted a measure somewhere. I am not sure how you did this insertion, but maybe check that you don't have any strange artifacts in Reaper on your tracks because of this insertion. It happened to me once that somehow I had a sort of "wrapping" in my measures (I had no idea how I managed to put that into my project, probably I drag-and-dropped something without noticing), and everything seemed fine when looking at the midi track itself and playing with the visualizer, but then Magma was throwing errors. Eventually I noticed that somewhere I had a hidden measure (or a zero-length measure), and the editor would just wrap around it so that it showed the midi track following the audio properly, but Magma saw some notes carry over from the previous measure into the hidden measure and over the next... I am not saying you might have the same problem, but maybe just make sure that inserting that measure hasn't cause a weird change in your track structure.



#16 Guido

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Posted June 16, 2020 - 03:22 PM

Thanks for your detailed response... found the problem. I needed to render the audio files again (main & mute) , to account for the resized tempo map...

When the audio is rendered, the Render Bounds setting on my setup defaults to 'Entire Project' so I guess it makes sense.. adding in the new measure will mean the audio will no longer sync/ match with the project unless you render the audio again.

 

To insert the measure I simply selected the whole of measure 1.0, right mouse click for the context menu , 'Insert Empty Space into Selection'.. then I had to ensure all the MIDI tracks start from 1.0 again to account for the new measure (otherwise Magma complains)


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