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Question about e-drum compatibility...

e-drums comapatibility yamaha midi

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#1 mrcoupdetat

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Posted November 28, 2019 - 08:00 PM

So I've been using a Yamaha DTXplorer for the past 8 years when playing drums on Rockband 3 on my PS3. I've got the midi adapter thingy and I haven't had a single problem. Nonetheless, the kit itself is starting to show its age, so I'm thinking of upgrading to a more advanced kit --- the Yamaha DTX582K --- and I want to make sure I can still play Rockband 3 with it. I've noticed, however, that the specs for the new kit don't feature a midi out, so I'm thinking my midi adapter is of no use to me anymore.

 

So here's my question: is the DTX582K compatible with RB3 on the PS3?

 

I just don't want to drop a lot of money on a new drum kit, only to find out that I can't actually use it to play RB3 anymore.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

mrcoupdetat



#2 FujiSkunk

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Posted November 28, 2019 - 08:15 PM

The DTX582K uses the DTX502 drum brain, for which you can download a manual here.  The manual provides instructions on how to change any given trigger's MIDI note, which means even if the kit doesn't work with RB3 out of the box (which it most likely will), you can still program it for full compatiblity.

 

However...

 

Since the DTX502 doesn't have MIDI jacks, instead of connecting to the MPA directly, you would have to connect the drum brain to a computer which could then be connected to the MPA using a USB-to-MIDI cable like this, and with a program like MIDI-OX routing between the two connections, like so.  Sadly the USB-to-MIDI cable can't be used to connect a drum brain directly to the MPA, nor can the drum brain be connected directly to a console, so using a computer for the go-between is your only option for this paritcular kit.



#3 mrcoupdetat

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Posted November 29, 2019 - 03:17 AM

The DTX582K uses the DTX502 drum brain, for which you can download a manual here.  The manual provides instructions on how to change any given trigger's MIDI note, which means even if the kit doesn't work with RB3 out of the box (which it most likely will), you can still program it for full compatiblity.

 

However...

 

Since the DTX502 doesn't have MIDI jacks, instead of connecting to the MPA directly, you would have to connect the drum brain to a computer which could then be connected to the MPA using a USB-to-MIDI cable like this, and with a program like MIDI-OX routing between the two connections, like so.  Sadly the USB-to-MIDI cable can't be used to connect a drum brain directly to the MPA, nor can the drum brain be connected directly to a console, so using a computer for the go-between is your only option for this paritcular kit.

 

Thanks a bunch for clarifying things for me! It sounds like this new kit might involve some more hoops to jump through, but my personal computer is in the same room as my tv, PS3, and drum kit, so I should be able to get things up and running relatively easily.   



#4 jerrylive365

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Posted November 29, 2019 - 05:00 PM

IMO, unless you are completely sold on this new kit I would perhaps look around and find one with a pure midi out. Save you the hassle of doing interfaces with your pc and no BS delays.



#5 Shroud

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Posted November 29, 2019 - 07:02 PM

  Sadly the USB-to-MIDI cable can't be used to connect a drum brain directly to the MPA, nor can the drum brain be connected directly to a console, so using a computer for the go-between is your only option for this paritcular kit.


Stupid question here, but what happens if you directly plug an eDrum kit into the ps3 or xbox using a midi-usb cable?

#6 FujiSkunk

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Posted November 29, 2019 - 08:26 PM

Stupid question here, but what happens if you directly plug an eDrum kit into the ps3 or xbox using a midi-usb cable?

 

Simply put: the MPA appears as a game controller to the console, where a MIDI instrument would not.  The MPA converts MIDI data to game controller data (what buttons are pressed, where the analog sticks are, etc.).  If you instead fed that MIDI data to the console directly, it wouldn't know what to do with it.

 

Theoretically this shouldn't be a problem if you connected a USB-only module to the MPA with a USB-to-MIDI cable, but I've read the problem there is that there is no single standard for transmitting MIDI data over USB, and it's up to the OS drivers to ensure the MIDI-over-USB data is converted correctly to raw MIDI and vice versa.  That's why a computer has to be involved.



#7 mrcoupdetat

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Posted November 29, 2019 - 10:35 PM

IMO, unless you are completely sold on this new kit I would perhaps look around and find one with a pure midi out. Save you the hassle of doing interfaces with your pc and no BS delays.

 

Here's the thing though: it looks like all new Roland and Yamaha e-kits have a USB out rather than a midi out. Sad to say, but the midi out is going the way of the dodo.



#8 Shroud

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Posted November 30, 2019 - 08:39 AM

 
Simply put: the MPA appears as a game controller to the console, where a MIDI instrument would not.  The MPA converts MIDI data to game controller data (what buttons are pressed, where the analog sticks are, etc.).  If you instead fed that MIDI data to the console directly, it wouldn't know what to do with it.


What I thought is that the regular controller buttons have nothing to do with midi, and an eDrums obviously doesn't have them. The MPA provides them.

But what "conversion" is done to the MIDI events? The game itself uses MIDI events, so is the MPA really converting them?

I can understand if e.g. it duplicates the MIDI event corresponding to the green pad notes into the X button so that you can use the pads as a controller (something limited in RB3 compared to previous games).

But if that's the case, then there could be a possibility for a DIY simpler device that multiplexes together MIDI from an eDrum and controller signals.

#9 Alternity

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Posted November 30, 2019 - 08:35 PM

IMO, unless you are completely sold on this new kit I would perhaps look around and find one with a pure midi out. Save you the hassle of doing interfaces with your pc and no BS delays.

I've used instruments through my PC (or sound modules MIDI-through) several times without any delay issues, I never had to set the calibration differently because the signal had to do one more step. Maybe it would add lag if you're translating the signal with a computer from the 80s though, I guess you can test that.



#10 mrcoupdetat

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Posted November 30, 2019 - 11:10 PM

I've used instruments through my PC (or sound modules MIDI-through) several times without any delay issues, I never had to set the calibration differently because the signal had to do one more step. Maybe it would add lag if you're translating the signal with a computer from the 80s though, I guess you can test that.

 

I'm glad to hear that delay isn't an issue, as that's one thing that I was definitely wary of. In fact, I came very close to buying a three year old used set today because it had a dedicated midi in/out port. It would have allowed me to retain my current set up, but ultimately there were some condition issues that prevented me from buying it. 



#11 Spike1958

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Posted December 1, 2019 - 02:09 AM

I had been using the Roland TD-4 kit for a few years. When we moved, I THOUGHT I no longer had the needed space for the kit, so I sold it and got the RB4 kit. As we were mostly playing RB4 on the PS4, this was not an issue. No one could be Ringo when we play TBRB on the PS3, but we decided to live with it. After a couple of years, I remembered WHY I got an ekit in the first place, so started looking around.

 

The Alesis Nitro Mesh Kit was on for a good price, so decided to go that route. Already had the Midi Pro adapter(have 2 actually), so it was basically just plug it in and go. Did make a few timing and sensitivity adjustments from one of the forums. Works like a charm, and I actually like it better than the Roland. One added bonus is that you can set all the MIDI notes and the hi-hat closed and open are not tied to each other. You can also change the splash note, so you can set that to 0. Now you can depress the hihat pedal, not loose your streak and play the blue notes on the hihat.



#12 Shroud

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Posted December 1, 2019 - 07:34 AM

One added bonus is that you can set all the MIDI notes and the hi-hat closed and open are not tied to each other. You can also change the splash note, so you can set that to 0. Now you can depress the hihat pedal, not loose your streak and play the blue notes on the hihat.


I still can't use my eDrums with RB3 (because I haven't found a PS3 MPA that doesn't cost a fortune) but I already know that playing open hihat properly in RB3 would be my ultimate dream :)

I have read that one difficulty is that is requires to be unnaturally precise with the foot. When you say you set Splash to 0, do you mean you are practically turning off the event of pressing the hihat pedal itself?

#13 MasonPox

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Posted December 1, 2019 - 10:15 PM

So I've been using a Yamaha DTXplorer for the past 8 years when playing drums on Rockband 3 on my PS3. I've got the midi adapter thingy and I haven't had a single problem. Nonetheless, the kit itself is starting to show its age, so I'm thinking of upgrading to a more advanced kit --- the Yamaha DTX582K --- and I want to make sure I can still play Rockband 3 with it. I've noticed, however, that the specs for the new kit don't feature a midi out, so I'm thinking my midi adapter is of no use to me anymore.

 

So here's my question: is the DTX582K compatible with RB3 on the PS3?

 

I just don't want to drop a lot of money on a new drum kit, only to find out that I can't actually use it to play RB3 anymore.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

mrcoupdetat

 

I've been playing alesis e-drum on Rock band without midi output. I plugged USB-B cable into computer, run some software (don't remember name, can find it for you if you want)  and usb-midi cable into midi adapter. And i can't say there were no problems with input delay. I had to calibrate rb for drums because it's an rhytm instrument and then, i had guitars and vocals slightly delayed. Wasn't unplayable but had to centre the calibration so that drums are just a tiny bit off and the rest of instruments doesn't have like a second delay. Maybe there are some ways to configure software from which e-drum is passed on computer but i never managed to do it so everything is the same lag.

 

Now i'm playing on Roland Td-25Kv set with midi output and it just kick ass, 0 input lag with other instruments and everything just plays for itsels. It's so great to play rb and hearing your drum sound so good.

So i just recommend buying set with midi output if you want to play with full band without tearing out your hair to configure it to be playable for everyone. I know it's not cheap, but from my short experience it's only good way to have everything right.

 

 

I still can't use my eDrums with RB3 (because I haven't found a PS3 MPA that doesn't cost a fortune) but I already know that playing open hihat properly in RB3 would be my ultimate dream :)

I have read that one difficulty is that is requires to be unnaturally precise with the foot. When you say you set Splash to 0, do you mean you are practically turning off the event of pressing the hihat pedal itself?

 

Playing open/close hihat is great but most songs are charted to have open HH as blue, which is ride. I just hate it when songs are charted with yellow/blue played one after another (like in Manuel - Gas Gas Gas, it's just impossible to play on edrum) and i have to act like a metronome because hihat and ride are on opposite side of drums. Also, i had to get used to the thing that i have green cymbals in the middle and blue on my right so inverted as on screen, but that's the small problem compared to yellow/blue played one after another.



#14 mrcoupdetat

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Posted December 1, 2019 - 10:25 PM

 

So i just recommend buying set with midi output if you want to play with full band without tearing out your hair to configure it to be playable for everyone. I know it's not cheap, but from my short experience it's only good way to have everything right.

 

 

I do play with friends on occasion, but 95% of the time it's just me wailing on the drums, so it shouldn't be a huge issue. I'm going to keep my old kit, so I can always set it up again if I ever want to do the full band thing without worrying about delay issues.

 

 

 

I just hate it when songs are charted with yellow/blue played one after another....

 

This is one aspect of Rock Band that I really hate. We shouldn't have to hit a completely different cymbal to play an open hi-hat. I wish they would have emulated Guitar Hero and used a slightly altered yellow icon whenever an open hi-hat shows up in the chart.



#15 MasonPox

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Posted December 1, 2019 - 10:29 PM

 

This is one aspect of Rock Band that I really hate. We shouldn't have to hit a completely different cymbal to play an open hi-hat. I wish they would have emulated Guitar Hero and used a slightly altered yellow icon whenever an open hi-hat shows up in the chart.

 

I was thinking of making a list of the songs which are doing this thing and changing it in Reaper to all yellows so i can just have fun opening/closing the hihat, but it would take some time and i don't know if it's worth it. Same thing with official DLC  songs without double bass pedal, would love to have Megadeth Rust in Peace or Slipknot dlc songs with double bass...



#16 Shroud

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Posted December 1, 2019 - 10:50 PM

Playing open/close hihat is great but most songs are charted to have open HH as blue, which is ride. I just hate it when songs are charted with yellow/blue played one after another (like in Manuel - Gas Gas Gas, it's just impossible to play on edrum) and i have to act like a metronome because hihat and ride are on opposite side of drums. Also, i had to get used to the thing that i have green cymbals in the middle and blue on my right so inverted as on screen, but that's the small problem compared to yellow/blue played one after another.


I think Spike1958 managed to trigger blue notes with hihat + depressed pedal, so you play open/closed hihat as in the real thing. The only issue remaining is how to tell when a blue cymbal note is an open hihat rather than a ride.

The alternative is to chart all hihats as yellow, and basically give up on open ones. But this is then unfair to those who play with RB drums where blue notes are not much of a problem.

To get the best of both worlds, we need two versions of the same custom.

#17 FujiSkunk

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Posted December 2, 2019 - 03:54 AM

But what "conversion" is done to the MIDI events? The game itself uses MIDI events, so is the MPA really converting them?


The game itself uses MIDI files to store instrument charts and other in-game events, yes, but that doesn't mean it's getting MIDI from the controllers. Others can answer better than I can, but essentially all "approved" game controllers, including RB and GH instrument controllers, are exactly that: game controllers. They have to speak the same language all other game controllers do. Somewhere I read how Harmonix had to map out exact positions of the two analog thumbsticks that could translate into all the possible single notes and chords playable on the official keyboard controller, and that's also how the MPA tells the console what keys are pressed on a MIDI keyboard.
 

But if that's the case, then there could be a possibility for a DIY simpler device that multiplexes together MIDI from an eDrum and controller signals.

 

Some sort of do-it-yourself MPA that has a USB port instead of a MIDI jack might be possible, but you're still going to be at the mercy of how the drum module sends its MIDI data over USB.  As I mentioned before, apparently that isn't the most standard of standards.



#18 Alternity

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Posted December 2, 2019 - 04:20 AM

Someone made a DIY MPA for the PS3 version (only for drums). I think PS3 and Wii are possible to make, but X360 you would probably have no luck. These controllers uses special chips to be recognized by the console (by these I mean all 360 controllers, including the MPA).







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