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Unorthodox/illegal drums charting


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#1 Shroud

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Posted June 19, 2019 - 12:25 PM

I haven't even charted my first custom, and I'm already asking about breaking the rules...  :D

 

While reading/watching the authoring tutorial material and trying to think of a candidate song to become my first attempt at authoring, I stumbled upon the following dilemma... how to properly chart the drums for a song with disco flip and mixed downbeat/upbeat snares.

 

Disco flip is used to invert red/yellow pads when there is a constant stream of fast hi-hat strikes, so that hitting the snare can be done with the right-hand while generally alternating right/left hits, without crossing hands. This however assumes that the snare is always hit on downbeat, or to use a more precise expression, on odd-numbered 16ths (or whatever). Should a song have a fast hi-hat stream with snares on even-numbered 16ths, even tho that's not common, then not using disco flip is better.

 

But what to do when the song has a mix of both?  :raise:

 

A real drummer plays this sort of case by alternating right/left strikes on the hi-hat, and then striking the snare with the right hand on odd-numbered 16ths, and with the left hand on even-numbered 16ths.

 

So my first idea was to keep using the yellow pad for hi-hat, using the blue pad as snare for odd-numbered 16ths, and use the normal red pad as snare for even-numbered 16ths. This idea would preserve the movements and the feeling of the real drummer. But it has a  few problems:

 

1) it's very unorthodox to use the blue pad for snare

2) it won't work with drums multistems, because the blue pad won't affect the snare stem

3) it is incompatible with pro drums, because it would require a completely different chart for them

 

Regarding the last point, if I understand correctly you cannot chart pro drums independently, they always use the basic drums chart and you only define when a yellow/blue/green gem is a cymbal or tom. However, when using pro drums there shouldn't be much problem in this scenario just charting all hi-hats to yellow and all snares to red, because with the hi-hat cymbal positioned more or less above the snare, there is actually no hand-crossing problem. But this would mean that basic drums and pro drums would need two different charts.

 

The alternative is of course to just chart hi-hat and snare normally, and require the basic drums player to strike all the hi-hats with the right hand, and all the snares with the left hand. However, doing so might be impossible if the speed is too high, and generally loses the feeling of playing with alternating strikes like a real drummist would do.

 

So what's your take on this matter?

 

If you're curious to knowing which song triggered this question to me, or I just epic-failed my explanations and you have no clue what I'm talking about, it's Joe Satriani's "Friends": https://www.youtube....h?v=C_n9xwKivG4



#2 DoNotPassGo

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Posted June 19, 2019 - 04:55 PM

I think* you are just referring to a disco flip section where there are left-hand snare hits still? At least, it's what it sounds like when listening to the early part of the music clip.

 

That's just an unfortunate part of the RB kit. Stock users without cymbals need to paradiddle them. The main usage for a disco flip is when both hands are alternating on the hi-hat and there is snare in the same stream (without any gaps) to give stock players the best chance of playing them as naturally (ie, alternating hands) as possible. Don't fudge around that, and just chart it as it is. 

 

 

Edit:

 

Check out the end of Antibodies. There are a good handful of off-snares thrown in there on a HMX chart.



#3 DemonUnicorns

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Posted June 19, 2019 - 04:59 PM

Disco flip sections can very well have snare hits on yellow that are as you say 'odd-numbered 16ths'. I find this very doable to hit with my left hand on even a standard RB kit.

 

Please do not put any snare on blue.



#4 BornGamerRob

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Posted June 20, 2019 - 01:42 AM

Don't fudge around that, and just chart it as it is.

 

Please do not put any snare on blue.

 

That should just about do it. =-)


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#5 ws54

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Posted June 20, 2019 - 02:39 AM

I don’t have an answer for this. I just wanted to say that anyone that gives this much attention to their first custom has the makings of a great author. Still, I’d suggest a simpler first song.

#6 FujiSkunk

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Posted June 20, 2019 - 10:41 PM

Still, I’d suggest a simpler first song.

 

Some people insist on jumping into the deep end to learn how to swim.  And some people succeed.

 

Do make sure you have an out though, so it's not too late if and when you realize you're drowning. :)



#7 imac007

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Posted June 21, 2019 - 12:03 AM

I think* you are just referring to a disco flip section where there are left-hand snare hits still? At least, it's what it sounds like when listening to the early part of the music clip.

 

That's just an unfortunate part of the RB kit. Stock users without cymbals need to paradiddle them. The main usage for a disco flip is when both hands are alternating on the hi-hat and there is snare in the same stream (without any gaps) to give stock players the best chance of playing them as naturally (ie, alternating hands) as possible. Don't fudge around that, and just chart it as it is. 

 

 

Edit:

 

Check out the end of Antibodies. There are a good handful of off-snares thrown in there on a HMX chart.

 

Nicely done.  What drum kit is that?



#8 BornGamerRob

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Posted June 21, 2019 - 03:25 AM

Roland TD-1K

 

Believe it or not, it's considered a beginner kit. Although, that drummer doesn't qualify. =-)


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#9 Shroud

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Posted June 21, 2019 - 07:10 AM

I dont have an answer for this. I just wanted to say that anyone that gives this much attention to their first custom has the makings of a great author. Still, Id suggest a simpler first song.


Thank you for your very kind words... let's wait and see until I am actually able to release anything :)

I am certainly trying to target an easy song to start with. If it wasn't for the drum pattern creating this problem on basic drums, this song would definitely be on the easy side for me! I've known this song for decade and used to play it on a real guitar, even sort-of played on drums back then (without being a drummer really), I still have the character sheets, it has very clearly audible instruments in the mix, and most importantly it has no vocals :D and neither keys.

But the drum pattern is so essential to this song that rather than making it bad it's probably best not to make it at all.

#10 Shroud

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Posted June 21, 2019 - 09:49 AM

Although.... going back home from my own mind games to actually testing it out on RB (basic) drums, I now think it's not that bad to chart it as a normal disco flip.

To me, using both (alternating) red/blue for snare feels best, but we established that other players won't like it.
Playing it with snare on red as normal is pretty bad, it yields handcrossing all the time (even clashing sticks) unless you tilt the left stick 45 degrees all the time, which feels awkward.
Normal disco flip only yields minimal handcrossing and seems much more manageable. That's the way to go! :)

#11 DoNotPassGo

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Posted June 21, 2019 - 11:30 AM

The song's tempo doesn't seem that fast at all, so it's likely less a problem even more due to that. In the end, the standards are usually the way to go... and that's coming from someone who tends to break them himself whenever possible ha



#12 Farottone

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Posted June 23, 2019 - 12:02 AM

I used Bt for a Queensryche song that has an intro on toms years ago, and I've been saying for years Harmonix should have done the same for Move Along



#13 FUGGNUTZ

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Posted June 23, 2019 - 12:53 AM

In the case of a disco beat with offbeat snares, it's usually better to flip it than keep it unflipped. In the case of the song you're charting, it's better to have it flipped and keep the snares to yellow. The only thing that would be tricky to hit would be the offbeat snares, but they're still not that hard to do on a stock kit. It's better to have to do the occasional crossover on an offbeat snare than a constant crossover on the downbeat, because if you miss the downbeat hit, you lose track of the rhythm of the song.



#14 Shroud

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Posted June 23, 2019 - 07:57 AM

In the case of a disco beat with offbeat snares, it's usually better to flip it than keep it unflipped. In the case of the song you're charting, it's better to have it flipped and keep the snares to yellow. The only thing that would be tricky to hit would be the offbeat snares, but they're still not that hard to do on a stock kit. It's better to have to do the occasional crossover on an offbeat snare than a constant crossover on the downbeat, because if you miss the downbeat hit, you lose track of the rhythm of the song.


You are absolutely right. I have now practiced the 3 options a bit on the stock kit, and there is a huge difference. This song is a lot easier with disco flip.




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