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Clone Hero and C3X: why it never happened


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#41 CyclopsDragon

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 01:12 AM

There's something I'd like to add in light of another post in this thread. Claiming that the CH community wouldn't exist without the groundwork laid by C3 is complete and utter conjecture. Clone Hero's boom in popularity came almost entirely from the promotion it received from streamers like JasonParadise, UKOGmonkey, and Acai upon the v.13 release in August 2017. The C3 conversion drive began at least a month after the game's popularity had jumped massively, and it was almost universally criticized by players and streamers alike due to the fact that the unvetted community releases were included with the legacy content. Despite the fact that the drive was listed on the main spreadsheet for acquiring songs, a large portion of the community didn't even know of its existence until Chorus launched in January 2018, roughly 5 months after the initial popularity jump, because they focused on old setlists and content created specifically for CH. In fact, Carpal Tunnel Hero 2 and Phase Shift Guitar Project 4 both released with Clone Hero-specific editions because of how popular it was getting. Not only is stating that the CH community built its popularity upon the work of C3 incredibly presumptuous and arrogant, but it's also flat-out factually incorrect.



#42 FUGGNUTZ

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 01:14 AM

There are two main problems that I see with collaborating to make the charts:

 

1. For the most part, the charting styles for both games are vastly different.

2. How would someone convert a project from CH format to RB format, and how would you convert a project from RB format to CH format?

 

If we can have answers for those two, then collaborations can happen more readily. I'm still ready to collab with anyone who wants to, if I'm given the opportunity.



#43 raphaelgoulart

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 01:35 AM

@FUGGNUTZ:
RB to CH: use C3CON Tools' Phase Shift Converter, load .mid in Moonscraper, make needed adjustments (add taps, open notes etc).
CH to RB: import chart in EoF, save, open notes_rbn.mid in REAPER, make necessary adjustments (force HO/POs on tap sections, adapt charts with open notes to 5-lane, add other instruments, etc).

I'm typing on the phone, so if I got something wrong please let me know. but the process isn't super complex, the information just isn't very widespread, I think

#44 MrPrezident

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 02:15 AM

There's something I'd like to add in light of another post in this thread. Claiming that the CH community wouldn't exist without the groundwork laid by C3 is complete and utter conjecture. Clone Hero's boom in popularity came almost entirely from the promotion it received from streamers like JasonParadise, UKOGmonkey, and Acai upon the v.13 release in August 2017. The C3 conversion drive began at least a month after the game's popularity had jumped massively, and it was almost universally criticized by players and streamers alike due to the fact that the unvetted community releases were included with the legacy content. Despite the fact that the drive was listed on the main spreadsheet for acquiring songs, a large portion of the community didn't even know of its existence until Chorus launched in January 2018, roughly 5 months after the initial popularity jump, because they focused on old setlists and content created specifically for CH. In fact, Carpal Tunnel Hero 2 and Phase Shift Guitar Project 4 both released with Clone Hero-specific editions because of how popular it was getting. Not only is stating that the CH community built its popularity upon the work of C3 incredibly presumptuous and arrogant, but it's also flat-out factually incorrect.

 

 

Considering most of the early game play videos feature setlists full of C3 content, this claim is rather dubious.  


R0bFRoi.png

 

Source


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#45 CyclopsDragon

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 02:24 AM

There's a very large difference between individual conversions and the C3 conversion drive. And you still haven't contradicted what I said at all. My statement was that the streamers playing the v.13 update caused the large popularity jump. The v.13 update video only featured Harmonix's Chop Suey chart, and the various streams of this update featured charts from all manner of different places. Some of those charts were early-access CTH2 charts. Some were charts carried over from the streamers' GH3PC setlists. Others still were charts that were sent directly to the streamers to test CH's song scanning. I was in all of the popular initial CH streams when this build released, and I can tell you that the vast majority of the charts played were by authors who were making charts for GH3PC. And yet, your claim, showing an extremely old build of Clone Hero, far before v.13 and entirely irrelevant to CH's boom in popularity, is supposed to be relevant... how?

 

All people cared about at this point in CH's development was how to convert their .sgh setlists that they used for GH3PC to a format that was readable in Clone Hero. C3 conversion was the least of anyone's concerns, because the GH3PC content had more features like open notes and tap notes, whereas the C3 charts felt outdated in that regard, since they were authored for a game that didn't have those features.



#46 TrojanNemo

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 02:25 AM

Not only is stating that the CH community built its popularity upon the work of C3 incredibly presumptuous and arrogant, but it's also flat-out factually incorrect.

 

The first songs played on CH - were they charted from scratch? Or were they existing songs? None of those songs were converted from C3 songs? Were they not converted with C3 tools? Are you sure?

 

Because JasonParadise's first CH video was showing off Darude - Sandstorm on the alpha version of the game. Using a Phase Shift version of the C3 release of the song by Gigakoops. He specifically links to C3 on his YouTube video. He scrolls through a few songs before Darude and none of the songs he was playing were CH specific songs, but preexisting DLC and/or customs.

 

 

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---

UKOGMonkey's first CH video was showing off 2112 - a pirated DLC song.

 

 

His fourth CH video shows him "dabbing on them FC's" to Muse's Knights of Cydonia. Which is available from the C3 database and also from bluzer on FretsonFire. Either way, not a CH specific song but something that was taken.

---

 

And Acai... oh boy.

 

You mean, the guy who within his first five videos about CH, made a video about how to convert from CON format to Clone Hero using my tools and linking to our forums? The same guy that I commented on his video and clarified something he raised during the video? That guy? That guy is responsible for the popularity of CH?

 




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Oh well. You are not the first person to call me presumptuous and arrogant.



#47 CyclopsDragon

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 02:30 AM

I like how you're ignoring all of the stream content that was literally the cause of the majority of the boom in the game's popularity. By the time any of these videos had launched, the game was already highly popular because of stream content.

 

You're arguing that CH players were playing charts not created specifically for CH... I mean, yeah? No one was specifically charting for Clone Hero until it got popular. This is such a non-argument that I don't even know what to say about it. Would you also say that Phase Shift owes its popularity to FoF? And that FoF owes its popularity to ScoreHero? By this logic, C3 owes its popularity to the original GH customs scene; a lot of the first RB custom charts were converted over from charts made for GH3, and without the original RB customs scene gaining traction, there would be no ground for C3 to stand on.



#48 MrPrezident

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 02:35 AM

I like how you're ignoring all of the stream content that was literally the cause of the majority of the boom in the game's popularity. By the time any of these videos had launched, the game was already highly popular because of stream content.

 

 

And I have enjoyed your clever deflection from the main topic of this thread.  Cheers to you, CyclopsDragon.


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#49 TrojanNemo

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 02:35 AM

Buddy. You chose to say:

 

 

 

Clone Hero's boom in popularity came almost entirely from the promotion it received from streamers like JasonParadise, UKOGmonkey, and Acai upon the v.13 release in August 2017

 

I didn't ignore anything. I pointed out the first few videos from those three people during August of 2017. You can't keep changing the goal post.

 

More importantly, don't forget just how much I don't give a shit what you think about me. I know my contributions to this community and the Phase Shift community. I also know that I provided source code that was used in the development of the game.

 

I've said my peace. You do you.



#50 siavash

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 02:47 AM

b2zLc9z.jpg
 

Green - C3 content

Red - Official content (most likely from the existing rips on Plumato's Drive)

Blue - GH3 content



#51 CyclopsDragon

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 02:55 AM

And I have enjoyed your clever deflection from the main topic of this thread.  Cheers to you, CyclopsDragon.

 

Nothing I have said has been a deflection of the main topic of the thread. The main topic of the thread is about why C3X failed. I've been here filling in all of the gaps that have been left out of the original post and in replies from other posters in this thread about the reasons that the CH charters did not want to participate in the project. You may see that the main topic of the thread is about Siavash, but the only reason that appears to be the case is because of all of the details left out of the original post, that I posted, that nobody responded to. My posts have been an attempt to bring to light the circumstances that led to this post targeting Siavash, and are entirely relevant to the main topic of the thread.

 

I didn't ignore anything. I pointed out the first few videos from those three people during August of 2017. You can't keep changing the goal post.

 

More importantly, don't forget just how much I don't give a shit what you think about me. I know my contributions to this community and the Phase Shift community. I also know that I provided source code that was used in the development of the game.

 

I've said my peace. You do you.

 

The UKOGmonkey video you posted is of a DLC rip. Multiple people did DLC rips in their own ways, and there's no guarantee that they used the C3 tools.

 

JasonParadise's video was popular, but was immediately eclipsed by his next video, which was also a Clone Hero video, and was created specifically for Clone Hero. I cannot understate the influence that Woah Memes had on the popularity of the Clone Hero community. Attempting to attribute the game's popularity to any one video is conjecture. My stance is that the streams had the most influence because the game's growth burst started from the streams; the videos came afterwards. 

 

And yes, Acai made a video on converting con files. But you underestimate how quickly the community grew and how many charts were already available for the game. People had far too many charts already; the entire crux of customs on GH3PC was that you could only have roughly 80 songs in a setlist, and a limited number of setlists in the game at once. Once people were able to hold all of their charts in CH at once, they already had thousands of charts available at once. Also, somewhat minor, but it was his eighth video. Not within the first five. May I also point out that his video about converting SGH files, the format for setlists in Guitar Hero Three Control Panel, has almost three times the views of the rb3con conversion video?

 

Ultimately, the claim that C3's work had such an influence on the growth of the CH community is almost entirely baseless. If we examine the first ten videos each of these streamers released after v.13 dropped, taking into account the fact that official rips can't be confirmed to have used the C3 tools, since they were more likely from existing rips that we have no way to prove how they were created, the total number of videos using C3 content is... 2 out of 30.

 

My "changing the goal post" stems entirely from the fact that you all seem to be trying so hard to support your own confirmation bias that I have to continually do the research to provide more information, something that I don't expect to have to do and quite frankly don't want to do because I have things that I'm trying to get done tonight. I don't even know why I'm still here talking about this, because it's clear that nothing I say is going to have any effect on you. Might I add that it was a poster on the C3 side of this discussion who originally brought up the idea that C3 content was in any way responsible for CH's popularity.

 

And you seem to think I could give a damn about you either way. My entire prerogative in this thread is to clear up misinformation. I couldn't care less who's perpetuating it.

 

I've said my piece. Clearly it doesn't mean anything to you. Maybe get back to me when you're interested in having an actual conversation.



#52 Jaeden7060

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 03:17 AM

We’ll be asking the CH devs to host this reply on the CH Discord as a show of fairness to us to address misleading and false statements. If you are reading this and you see a link to this thread on the CH Discord, we are very thankful to CH admins for allowing us to explain our point of view and present the facts. If you don’t see a link in a few days, I once again submit that you ask yourself why…

 

EDIT: after posting evidence that at least one of their admins lied publicly about what we said and did and wanted to sabotage relationships, we have received no message from the CH management. We won't ask them to post this publicly and they are under no obligation to do so: their silence is enough to explain their position on the matter.

 

if you actually asked the devs about hosting this thread on the CH server, then as a part of the admin team, we would have heard about it and discussed it. we heard nothing about this thread from any of the devs, so i have to assume you never talked to anyone on the dev team or staff team about this specific thread. yes, you and i talked in dms and you brought up this thread near the end of our discussion, but you never linked me this thread or asked if it could be hosted on the CH server.

 

i also believe you've stated multiple times that you've never talked to siavash. kinda crazy that you're going all out on this to defame him when you've only heard things and rumors about siavash from other people and you've never actually talked to the guy. seems irresponsible and childish to me, really.

 

also, i have no idea what exactly you're referring to by saying that siavash is a liar. there has been plenty of proof coming from the CH side of things that siavash hasn't lied about anything and he didn't try to sabotage c3x, rather he was trying to help, and you can see this from sygenysis' post in this thread.

 

Siavash is not only a liar, but is also an elitist man, and with a great hunger of power as an admin, and when someone doesn't agree with his "standards", he just insult you on PM and ban you from the server, he's not a guy i would trust, and honestly, i think he shouldn't be an admin of the server

 

i have no idea where you got this idea that siavash is elitist and is power hungry, unless you have seen more out of context screenshots that have been specifically curated to slander siavash and make him out to be a terrible person.

 

he has never insulted anyone over dm's or pm's over charting standards, and he has especially never banned anyone over something as innocent as charting standards or over a disagreement over charting standards.

 

if any of our admins in the CH server actually did any of these things that you are claiming that siavash has done, they never would have been made an admin in the first place, and if they currently are an admin, they would have been removed shortly after the admin team found out about them going rouge.

 

even when you yourself dm'd him on discord, he did not insult you over anything and he did not ban you from the CH server. in fact, he said nothing at all to you, so if anything, i believe you are the liar here and you are harassing siavash.

 

oh look, i have proof that siavash has said nothing to you. unknown.png



#53 Colonel 32dll

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 03:22 AM

It's like talking to a tree stump.



#54 ManNamedGarbo

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 03:32 AM

It's like talking to a tree stump.

I feel the exact same way looking through this thread. It's like everyone is having 3 different conversations and completely ignores the fact the others are going on, or just so happen to forget what points have been refuted or what has been deflected. This whole thread is a dumpster fire.



#55 TrojanNemo

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 03:40 AM

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#56 Synth

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 06:24 AM

Shit happens [2]


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Long Season (Live) - Fishmans


#57 Farottone

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 09:43 AM

As details later came out, there would be two separate packs, thematic, one by C3 authors, one by CH charters, for their respective formats, which fundamentally defeats the purpose of a collaboration, or at least isn't a true collaboration.

 

This point has been brought up disingenuously a number of times, as I've shown through screenshots, so let's address it once again. Nobody ever, at any time, said that authors wouldn't be able to collaborate over individual songs or packs. The point is simply that Clone Hero is not a full band game and Rock Band 3 is. For that reason, to make it compulsory for any pack to be for both formats, for pack of let's say 10 songs, you would need to find CH charters willing to add all instruments to their CH song: did anyone think that any CH charter would agree to that for every single song they author? I sure didn't, so I sure didn't want to make it compulsory for them to do that.

 

That proposal was done to reach out to the CH community, or are you genuinely saying every single CSC charter is willing to author full band songs tomorrow? If we work on a Yes 10-pack and we collaborate, and 4 authors get involved, 2 from each community, do you think if we made it compulsory that the 2 CH authors do the same amount of work as the 2 RB3 authors, even if their own game does not support those instruments, it would have been seen as a fair proposal? Also, please point me to the CH admin's post where any CH admin laments that they wanted to author full band because that's what they meant by collaboration, but were prevented from doing that. 

 

Nobody ever said this couldn't happen, it's just common sense that a COLLABORATION Tour date could look like this to accomodate both parties:

 

May 16th - Rock Your Socks Off!

 

(for Rock Band 3 and Clone Hero)

Band 1 - 3 pack

Song1, Song2, Song3

 

(for Clone Hero only)

Band 2 - 4 pack

Song1, Song2, Song3, Song4

 

Because C3X mandate songs be full band, we can't give RB3 users songs with missing instruments.

 

I also have now read the word "drama" one too many times. There's no drama here, there are lies and misdirection as pointed out in the first message. Drama is when two sides make a huge fuss out of nothing. Lies and misdirection is what happened here.

 

Every single thing I said and did was to accomodate CH charters so that they wouldn't feel we were trying to impose something on them, and you should know that very well as I'm sure you do. I understand you want to be neutral, but neutral isn't necessarily the right thing. And please don't say "the CH community" as if I hadn't addressed the point right away: the CH community was screwed by CH admins, I had nothing bad to say about the community and I made sure it was clear.



#58 Farottone

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 09:55 AM

By this logic, C3 owes its popularity to the original GH customs scene; a lot of the first RB custom charts were converted over from charts made for GH3, and without the original RB customs scene gaining traction, there would be no ground for C3 to stand on.

 

http://customscreato...eneral-address/

 

 

However we were disappointed that nobody in the Clone Hero admin ranks ever wrote us a single line saying “Hey guys, we wanted to let you know we are taking advantage of the huge archive of songs you produced and converting them for Clone Hero. Thanks so much for all the hard work!” C3 itself was born after another successful project like GHtoRB3 and we not only worked with them but we eventually absorbed all their content, hosted it on our servers at our expense and promoted their work.

 

See the difference between us? We tallk the talk and walk the walk. You know why? Because it's so much easier then to speak the truth. We recognize the people who were there before us and whose work helped us be where we are. We always thank the pioneers and we always credit the people who do the hard work. Even with visual evidence, you are here disputing any factual contribution. Why? Because you can't bring yourself to simply say "You know what? What some of our admins said is just not right. What those private messages say is different than what it was said to us and the community and it shouldn't have happened. Maybe a collaboration would have happened, maybe it wouldn't, but nobody should have even thought of fracturing relationships over a proposal". But please, as I said from the beginning, do go ahead and post more messages we can address with facts and screenshots, because this thread needs to be here to document exactly how we work.



#59 Farottone

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 10:11 AM

 

i also believe you've stated multiple times that you've never talked to siavash. kinda crazy that you're going all out on this to defame him when you've only heard things and rumors about siavash from other people and you've never actually talked to the guy. seems irresponsible and childish to me, really.

 

also, i have no idea what exactly you're referring to by saying that siavash is a liar. there has been plenty of proof coming from the CH side of things that siavash hasn't lied about anything and he didn't try to sabotage c3x, rather he was trying to help, and you can see this from sygenysis' post in this thread.

 

i have no idea where you got this idea that siavash is elitist and is power hungry, unless you have seen more out of context screenshots that have been specifically curated to slander siavash and make him out to be a terrible person.

 

Knowing what I know from that tweet of DMs you had with him that you passed on to other people, I genuinely feel for you, and I could not be any more truthful in saying that. That discussion will never enter this thread as I personally promised you and if anybody posts any screenshot of that discussion we will remove them immediately, but I can't un-know what I know and for that reason I won't reply to what you said point by point because it wouldn't be fair to someone who had with siavash an experience like the one people who read that tweet saw.

 

As I said, people can make up their own minds simply by reading what siavash said and what I actually said in private and how I said that. From the screenshots I've posted for example it's clear I never ghosted anyone or disappeared because I didn't want to agree to something, so once again people will have to ask themselves why siavash would lie about that.



#60 froogle

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 11:59 AM

You guys have got to be kidding me. All you're doing is beating a dead horse. Grow up.

Charter and procrastinator extraordinaire, at your disservice. D:





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