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Clone Hero and C3X: why it never happened


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#21 siavash

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:53 PM

Another common talking point I see brought up is the occasional inclusion of other instruments on Guitar/Bass parts. This is simply a community difference, in my opinion. It's easier for us to say that an instrument belongs on one specific part when you also have a Keys part to work with. Many people here are purists when it comes to instrument divisions, mostly because of the inclusion of the Keys part. There's no real reason to chart a synth line to Guitar when you can do it on Keys and it'll be considered more "realistic". Clone Hero charters don't have this option, so you see different results.

 

Furthermore, C3 has an open database, just as Chorus does. In both cases, you find questionable content if you look enough. 

 

I think CH charters' main thinking behind charting keys solos or non-guitar solos on the Guitar Track is mainly for fun. CH doesn't strive to be a "music simulation" game. It's just about enjoying the music and charts to their fullest extent, and many of us believe that incorporating the most fun elements of a song into the Guitar Track is the way to do that. That's why we can release charts and setlists featuring nothing but electronic music. It's why our charters can chart stuff like jazz with piano and sax solos.

 

Furthermore, minor clarification, Chorus is not completely open. I believe charts just have to be tempo-mapped, synced, sensible, and playable to be featured, though. 



#22 MrPrezident

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:55 PM

 Why was Sygenysis asked to lead the CH team of charters, when he's already primarily a CH contributor? That's not a collaboration.

I ask you, who should we have approached to be the go-between if not a charter that served in both communities?   What an odd thing to say


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#23 siavash

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 12:05 AM

I ask you, who should we have approached to be the go-between if not a charter that served in both communities?   What an odd thing to say

 

How is that a collaboration when we have our own organizer and our own pack of songs and we're essentially kept separate from the C3 side of things unless it's to convert things? Many of us come from a RBN or FoF background and are fully equipped to chart full band if needed, but that was clearly not the intention. The intention was to keep us separate. There was no talk of integrating or even attempting to make everyone work together. That, along with the blatant elitism and disrespect that Farottone displayed towards the same charters that he was asking to participate, is the reason why people did not want to take part.

 

That screenshot in the initial post about fracturing the C3 and CH relationship? That was something I said, but it's missing context. That was what I said after someone else stated that they didn't know how to break the news to you concerning everyone's lack of willingness to take part in C3X. 



#24 FUGGNUTZ

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 12:12 AM

 

I think CH charters' main thinking behind charting keys solos or non-guitar solos on the Guitar Track is mainly for fun. CH doesn't strive to be a "music simulation" game. It's just about enjoying the music and charts to their fullest extent, and many of us believe that incorporating the most fun elements of a song into the Guitar Track is the way to do that. That's why we can release charts and setlists featuring nothing but electronic music. It's why our charters can chart stuff like jazz with piano and sax solos.

 

Furthermore, minor clarification, Chorus is not completely open. I believe charts just have to be tempo-mapped, synced, sensible, and playable to be featured, though. 

 

Thanks for clarifying Chorus' openness. I was not aware of that going into this discussion.

 

No matter how someone may decide to chart a part, whether it's strictly one instrument or many combined into one part, the goal of the game is to be fun. I mean, it's a video game at the end of the day. I think there's a separation in the way CH and RB charts are viewed when you look at their respective games. There are many examples of instruments crossing paths into one part in GH games, but not as many in RB. This has probably led the communities to view each style as right. Both styles can coexist, however, and they definitely should.



#25 EvilChameleon

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 12:33 AM

I do wish there was less talk of quality in this thread. People work hard on their songs, for both games, and just because it's not up to your high standards doesn't mean it's not a quality job. Especially since they are completely different games.



#26 expertwin

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 04:49 AM

I have been converting songs from the C3 and posting them in my own drive. That's why there are still C3 conversions on Chorus. While I'm considering removing my C3 conversions to streamline my folder, I do want to thank all of the C3 authors who made these charts.

#27 Synth

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 07:49 AM

Shit happens

 

 

 


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#28 rcale

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 10:41 AM

As a player of C3 customs for many years, a non-author and someone with close to zero knowledge of what CH is and how it is approached this is all very interesting. But as interesting as online back and forths are they're less interesting than collaboration - especially when theoretically both 'sides' want the same thing: fun songs / tracks to play in their respective games, preferably with a sense of community at the same time.

 

Given all the he said / she said that's gone on what has happened over the last couple of days is that it's brought the two communities back together again - albeit in a defensive capacity. What chance is there now of clearing up misconceptions and misunderstandings and moving forward in a unified way?

 

Is there a desire on both sides to truly collaborate? 

What does collaboration look like for both communities to feel equal?

Are there fundamental differences between both platforms that make collaboration harder to achieve than the effort required to do it?

 

If there's an opportunity for the emotion of the exchanges to be put aside then I suggest that that is what happens and the focus switches to the outcome that is desired. Easier said than done but no-one wins when point scoring is the main focus. 

 

There's far too much division in this world - any opportunity for people to come together, especially when it seems there is more connecting us than separating, is worth striving for.

 

Happy to help by way of mediation / requirements capture if that's of any use. C3 has given hours of enjoyment to me over the years, I suspect the same is felt by members of the CH community too. If I'm able to give anything back then I'm happy to try.



#29 SpeedPants

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 12:01 PM

i do hope the c3 and ch community's can come to an agreement, there's so much potential for greatness if done right.



#30 Farottone

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 02:21 PM

What chance is there now of clearing up misconceptions and misunderstandings and moving forward in a unified way?
 

 

First of all, thank you for years of loyal support :) Now, in this thread I made sure to only post facts and interpretation of what happened based on facts and witnesses. I haven't speculated because it's pointless: this thread is to explain how a simple proposal to work together was sabotaged and then was misrepresented with lies and misdirection on multiple occasions. I don't have the facts on the reason why, so I haven't posted about that, and that is why I ask the people who read this to ask themselves why. But I have a pretty good idea of why this happened and I'm more than confident that I'm 100% right. The fact that I stopped pursuing this deal is directly linked not only to what happened, but also to why I think it happened.

 

That said, if anyone wants to pick up where I left off and start a conversation with CH devs/adnims, with the CH Discord mods, etc., I would be the happiest person here to see a deal struck and a new era of collaboration begin. All our plans to work together are still here and I'm available any time to drop in and organize the effort once you've made a first successful contact.



#31 rcale

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 03:44 PM

Perfect. :)

Theres one hand reaching across the water. Anyone representing the CH community willing to open negotiations?

#32 psiven

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Posted May 4, 2019 - 05:56 PM

There seems to be some fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of the open database, because accusations of widespread quality issues with the C3 official releases, simply have no basis in reality. I'm sure the CSC release team would likewise prefer to be considered separately from the unfiltered public release pool.

 

I applaud your efforts Farottone, but personally I think the value of a wide collaboration is limited when the games are so divergent. Perhaps someday when there exists a full-band equivalent of CH there will be more crossover and more motivation for folks to engage such an effort honestly.



#33 IMMCTNTJK

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Posted May 5, 2019 - 10:36 PM

I didn’t want to say anything regarding this topic, but I’m up to it now since school’s almost out and in going to be more active over the summer.

I personally have had a very negative experience with few certain CH (Gh3 at the time) authors. They’ve silently judged my work (which I was only learning to chart at the time) and didn’t help me with my problems in charting one bit... just constant blaming of my talents. THIS put my in a very negative mood towards ALL GH3PC/CH authors. However, this was definitely the wrong way to go on my end, I didn’t acknowledge that fact that not everyone is going to judge my work but actually applaud it down the line.

This brings me to my point that: if someone has strictly approached you about the other community being monsters to themselves, don’t assume that everyone on the other side is the same (what farottone is saying, make your own assumptions)

Use of other’s charts: Mistakes happen. I’ve used several charts without permission when I was starting out here on C3 and I was punished for it. I was a few years younger and didn’t really understand what fair use was. The original charters of those songs (while some are inactive) are still my friends though, they’ve forgiven me.

Both C3 and CH have made the mistake of copying work of off each other. We have to forgive that and ask each other for use before we can copy each other’s charts. If the original charter disagrees, oh well, guess you’re going to have to chart your own (which if you liked the song, you might of thought about doing that already) If you don’t like the quality of the song, chart it yourself. All of the authors here understand that authoring is hard, doing the authoring right is harder.

I’m glad to see that everyone is brutally honest by saying these certain things. If you are still upset at someone, ask for an apology. If they don’t give you an apology back, just ignore them.

Each community absolutely needs the rule to not copy work, that is the biggest problem happening at this very moment.

Thanks for reading

#34 TrojanNemo

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Posted May 6, 2019 - 04:15 AM

Wow. Aren't you all glad I'm no longer part of the admin team? Because shit would have gone down a lot differently if I was.

 

 

As to farottone...

 

I have known farottone since, maybe 2012? and I know, that there are very few people in this world who are less caring, truthful and kindhearted than this man. Some of you think you have a vague idea of how much he has poured into this community. You're not even half way right. Unfortunately life has moved on for me and I only have time to read some posts every several days and I don't really have time to contribute. But I watch what is happening. I don't have the time to speak with farottone like we used to, but I know he's there if I need him and (i hope) he knows I'm still here if he needs me. I am willing to stake anything that you ask of me that, if there is a disparity between what each side is saying, that farottone is telling the truth. Because I don't believe even the Harmonix employees have dedicated as much time, sweat, tears, personal relationships, and income, to the success of the Rock Band community. And that's coming from me, who we can say spent a little bit of time and money on this community.

 

 

As to the CH game and its community...
 

Unless I'm mistaken, CON files are still being converted to all other formats (Wii, Phase Shift/CH, and PS3) thanks to the tools I created. Which were created because the C3 admins wanted the C3 community to be more and more inclusive. I took it upon myself to work with Wii users, with Phase Shift users, with PS3 users, to help them, because that's the kind of place C3 was and continues to be. I never played Phase Shift. I never even owned a PS3. And my Wii was only for stupid Wii games, not Rock Band. So I put all that time and effort to help others and welcome them into the C3 community, just because. Not once have we ever been exclusive, other than with thoes interested in pirating official content. So if it wasn't that CH can already read and perfectly play Phase Shift files, there would have been another converter added. As it is, the bulk of the original songs that were available for CH were available because of my tools. I know because I was contacted about removing the encryption on the songs for CH use. If there was no handy way to quickly have thousands of songs available for CH, would the community have flourished and the game taken off like it did? I wonder.

 

Has someone in the CH community taken over the role that I filled and created their own tools to automate conversions as of today? Or if today you happen to want a shitty C3 custom in your glorious CH game, do you still use my tools? The C3 tools? If they did create your own CH-specific tool, was it created without using any of the source code that I released? Are you sure about that?

 

And I may be mistaken and I may be thinking of a different guy who came here with the idea of creating a CH-like game years ago, but I remember someone coming to this forum and asking for help with how to read MIDI files and how to parse CON files. Someone asking me how Phase Shift parsed the .ini files that my converter created. And I provided him with the relevant parts of the source code and helped him get started. Granted, if that guy is indeed the CH creator, the guy is far better than I am and has undoubtedly surpassed anything I've created with CH. No doubt about it. But if I am right, then the creator of CH and the CH community by extension got started because of me and my willingness to help. And then it had the opportunity for a strong start because my tools made batch converting thousands of C3 songs to PS/CH format easy. And I'm willing to bet the CH authors have been exposed to the many other tools, tutorials and resources that C3 put out there.

 

So, where is the gratitude? Where is the respect for those that came before you, provided the framework, tools, and resources that allowed the CH community to get started?



In conclusion...

 

I frankly don't give two craps about whether C3 and CH work together. I think the communities are inherently different, since they exist around different games. I felt just about the same with Phase Shift. But still I made a converter, because why not be inclusive. If CH wants to be alone - be alone. But be alone. Don't use C3 charts, don't use C3 tools, don't use C3 source code in your tools, don't rely on C3 materials of any kind. That's a choice you can choose to make.

 

But if any one of you for one second thinks that you have the moral high ground here - you are sadly mistaken.
 

EDIT: And to be clear. I voluntarily stepped down from C3 admin duties years ago. I've never been part of the C3X admin team. I make no decisions and I have no official say here. This is my individual statement on this absurd situation.



#35 Farottone

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Posted May 7, 2019 - 12:59 AM

Thank you for all you've done and thank for you support in this message :) You have done more software work for the rhythm game community than any other individual I can name. You also make a crazy good point about contribution. I don't think the developers have anything to do with what happened, but it sure would be nice for them to both show some support for what we provided and some explanation as to why this is allowed to happen in their community.

 

I can think of few people, if any, with whom I would rather go in the trenches than you, thank you :)



#36 raphaelgoulart

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Posted May 7, 2019 - 03:11 PM

one thing that I find mildly funny and upsetting at the same time is that most people seem to not be getting the point of the issue here.

 

everyone's focusing on charting standards, on the conversion issue, etc. but most people - including some C3 folks - seem to gloss over the fact that a CH admin lied publicly. an admin of the server, not a random person, but someone who's not only influential, but whose name is tied to the game.

 

even if you really dislike C3/farottone, even if you think the collaboration wouldn't have worked out anyway, I fail to see how lies and misdirection is morally acceptable. if it wouldn't have worked anyway, the charters would just have refused or left naturally (as some did), which is fine. lying in order to ensure that that would happen, though, is not.

 

from a business perspective - which I think is relevant, since CH wants to grow - Siavash's name is associated with Clone Hero, as he's an admin of the server. having a liar as a higher-up of the community wouldn't paint it in a very good light, and i'm pretty sure the devs don't want that. of course C3 doesn't have enough exposure for that to happen in this specific event, but if it happened once, it can happen again, and if it happens in a case with more exposure, the outcome most likely won't be great.

 

furthermore, Siavash's own morals are questionable in his replies to this post - not only he deflects from the main subject bringing up points that aren't related to his lies/misdirection (which, unsurprisingly, worked), but he also made sure to include the name of individuals who probably don't want to be involved in this. farottone, at the very least, made sure to anonymize all of the names involved in messages posted in private places.

 

I really hope the devs eventually realize what this is about and do something about it, though I'm almost certain that Siavash will just be left with a slap on the wrist.



#37 Colonel 32dll

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Posted May 7, 2019 - 09:08 PM

Nemo summed it up best: The CH community wouldn't exist without the groundwork laid by those they seem to fear and hate? I assume "fear and hate", otherwise, why lie to their community? Something, as noted above, they have yet to respond to in this forum.

 

I don't know Farattone as well as Nemo does, but well enough to know who is being honest and who is not in this situation. Far's goals have always been "inclusion" and "enjoyment for all". I've NEVER seen him disparage another charter, another game or another community and have, in fact, witnessed him admonishing anyone who did. His breadth of rhythm game support has been staggering.

 

I agree with Nemo 100% - If CH wants to be alone, then by all means, BE ALONE and do it ALL by yourself. With Nemo wondering how his tools have likely been used by the CH community without credit or thanks, I have to wonder how many of my "less than stellar" customs have been sneered at by CH players. I don't recall being thanked, that's for sure.

 

Farattone, you are a patient, patient man. WAY more tolerant and understanding than I would be. Keep up the good fight, my friend. You were doing great things with RB long before these clowns showed up.



#38 SkullMan140

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Posted May 7, 2019 - 10:31 PM

Siavash is not only a liar, but is also an elitist man, and with a great hunger of power as an admin, and when someone doesn't agree with his "standards", he just insult you on PM and ban you from the server, he's not a guy i would trust, and honestly, i think he shouldn't be an admin of the server



#39 m9_

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Posted May 7, 2019 - 11:10 PM

That screenshot in the initial post about fracturing the C3 and CH relationship? That was something I said, but it's missing context. That was what I said after someone else stated that they didn't know how to break the news to you concerning everyone's lack of willingness to take part in C3X.


Wow, that drastically improves everything and doesn't come off as manipulative at all. For everyone not knowing the full context, the person in question actually wanted to make this work.

#40 Sygenysis

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Posted May 8, 2019 - 01:07 AM

I'd like to be able to speak on this dispute, both as a C3 author, and as a member of the Community Team for Clone Hero. Unfortunately, this is something that I have to take a somewhat neutral stance on, since I'm of the belief that drama between the CH and C3 communities won't benefit either party.

 

For context, I was messaged about C3X regarding potential CH involvement, I was under the impression that it would have been a collaboration of C3 authors and CH charters working on the same songs together, which would be available in RB3 and PS/CH formats for everybody. As details later came out, there would be two separate packs, thematic, one by C3 authors, one by CH charters, for their respective formats, which fundamentally defeats the purpose of a collaboration, or at least isn't a true collaboration. From there, I don't particularly blame CH charters for not wanting to be involved, because it's not the kind of project they'd be into. CH charters came to their conclusions on their own after being given more details regarding how C3X was going to operate, for people who aren't used to that brand of thematic releases, much different than the CSC monthly packs, it's understandable that they wouldn't want to be involved. From the start until the end, I wanted a collaboration to happen, but if the CH community wanted to do their own thing, that's their prerogative. I unfortunately have to disagree about efforts being made to sabotage a C3X collaboration, out of context quotes don't do anything besides make people look bad, any circumstantial "evidence" will pile up until you've made up your mind on something. I think that these accusations are unfounded and baseless, as well as do nothing but add fuel to the fire, not conducive at all to bridging a gap between communities or to find mutual understanding, sorry to say.

 

I think that previous point was where this should have ended, and bringing up any information or accusations that should have remained private between those that concerned them, especially this long after they happened, is unfair to everybody involved. Some comments are bordering on calling for witch hunts, and things have crossed over into the form of real harassment towards specific individuals. Siavash being removed as CH server admin doesn't solve any problems or negate any damage that's been done, and the amount of people here that are posting in defense of the CH community is clear that there's a tight knit group of charters and other users who are trying to do the best for their community as well. Using one person as a scapegoat for this entire issue is extremely unfair and paints a target on their back for targeted harassment, which is completely abhorrent.

 

I don't have a problem with the issues regarding CH and C3X being made public, people who fought to make a collaboration like this work deserve to know, however, a great deal of this stems from poor communication, which I'm partly responsible for, and preconceived notions about both parties were made. Charting quality and the C3 conversions drive are responsible for what some CH charters might have thought about C3 before going in, but it's not a main point to be focusing on. I was of the belief that we should give a collaboration a fair shot, and even though previous attempts at getting official C3/CH representation in each others' respective communities didn't work out, this had to have been something both communities authors and charters wanted and were on the same page for.

 

The average user of the CH community has played C3 charts and enjoyed them the same as any CH charts, don't let vocal minorities detract from what's a good thing. I can say that I'm appreciative of the work that any C3 author or CH charter has gone into for charting any song, I think we can all agree on the service that they're doing for the community is a net positive thing. That being said, that's what this should end as, I don't see any point in calling for "justice" from one person on either side, it doesn't make anything right, doesn't undo any wrong, and it feels like it stems a tendency to want to be angry or upset at something. I don't want to understate how much love and respect that I have for each and every one of you, for charters, non-charters, C3 community members, CH community members, my one main value in the rhythm game community is that I want to be able to be apart of interesting projects with cool people, anything beyond that I'll take for what it's worth.

 

It's easy enough to just say to forgive one another, you need time beyond that for wounds to heal, but as it is now, this thread and the drama surrounding it just serve as a way to just prolong bitter or angry feelings that are mostly misguided or unfounded. I'd rather we focus on recovery and doing real work towards making things right instead of making accusations and hurling insults at one another, we're not going extend open arms towards each other now, but both of our communities have to want that to be the goal in the future, and as it is now the mindsets of wanting to hate one another are standing in the way of that.






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