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Clone Hero and C3X: why it never happened


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#1 Farottone

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 07:13 PM

This announcement is for people in both the C3 and the Clone Hero community. For those who don’t know me, I’m farottone, co-founder of C3 in February 2013 and manager of this community. C3 has been from the very start a community based on respect and honesty: back when piracy of Rock Band content under the guise of customs was normal, we created an environment where piracy was banned and supporting official content was a value. Our efforts and our work ended up being also part of Rock Band 4, making us proud beyond belief of having contributed, even in a very small part, to more jobs being created and more people being able to play a game in its fullest form.

 

We always wanted to be different from the authoring community in general. Not because we think we’re better, but because we think we can be different. When we started out, we wanted to do something never done before: weekly releases. From there we moved on to doing packs, full albums, even almost-full discography projects in full band, with help from RBN-published authors. In 2016 we stopped our weekly releases when Rock Band 4 was released but kept a vibrant community driven by a database where everyone could post community-authored songs, which were put in a different group than the legacy C3 songs that had peer review and quality control. Last year we wanted once again to be different, so we started C3X, a reboot of our weekly releases. The effort has drawn a crazy amount of energy and contributions from all kinds of authors who also managed to track down original stems for some of our songs.

 

 

A new path: C3 and Ch community working together

 

When C3X was born we had a goal: release for all platforms, be it Rock Band 3, Phase Shift or Clone Hero. Of course we know all about Rock Band, we started out on that platform. However, we were not technically familiar with CH as much as we wanted and we also recognized the rising community that the game has, so we made a decision: let’s reach out to the Clone Hero community and see if we can work on a shared project. We could create a C3/CH group of people and release content together.

 

Now, it’s important to understand that working with the Clone Hero community needed for us to forgive the behavior that some of their members took with us. At first, our entire database was downloaded and converted, making up the bulk of the good initial Clone Hero content that was shared. No C3 author was ever asked if they would agree to this, no public message was posted thanking C3 for providing years of free content. But this is not what made us a bit uneasy. It also wasn’t the fact that on the CH Discord, some people routinely would slander our content by misrepresenting it as low quality: during our 2.5 years run our content was the most peer reviewed you could find, both because of our internal testing and because the content was partially authored by people with experience in commercial products. What made us uneasy is that after all of that, we received angry messages from CH charters upset that, while crediting them for their work, we had converted their songs to Rock Band 3 format. Still, we complied promptly, even opening a public thread on our forums.

 

With that in mind, I started a first contact with the Clone Hero community with ZeroHearts, who was very helpful but who eventually told me that it wasn’t feasible to talk to a group of CH authors together, that I had to contact them one by one. As the people who know me know, I have 12-hour work days, 7 days a week, so my time is limited, but still I wanted this to happen, so I started contacting authors. Discussions started roughly (a couple of no shows), and then I hit a couple of people who were interested and eager to work together. Then I moved on to more popular authors: 2 or 3 people of the most known authors declined, and then something weird happened…

 

 

Things devolve quickly

 

When I went back to the people I had brought aboard, suddenly they weren't interested anymore, citing mysterious bad actions brought forward by C3. What follows is an anonymized message from one of those authors

 

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I had no idea what they were talking about: C3X is a public project with no mysterious motivations. It’s been going on now for 2 legs with great results and everybody can see that it’s simply a great community project. Things quickly became clear to me: obviously behind the scenes somebody was trying to sabotage us by telling lies or misleading people. So, after a few private conversations, I finally got a hold of a portion of a message that confirmed what I already knew:

 

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I have removed the name of the individual posting this because this wasn’t shared publicly, but it’s important to understand what was happening: somebody influential was secretly threatening to destroy not just working together in a project, but “the relationship between C3 and CH”. It’s revealing that the individual in question never contacted me directly or indirectly, maybe fearing the worse for himself: that we would have struck a deal and that C3 and CH could work together for the benefit of both communities. After seeing that message dated late August and no other replies from CH authors I gave up: clearly people with influence there didn’t want our communities to interact (heck, they wanted to fracture the relationship between us) and so we moved on with C3X, sadly without the Clone Hero community.

 

I have known about the sabotage effort since late August, but I have never shared that message, not even with our own admins, until yesterday. While I had proof that someone was doing the worst by his own community, I didn’t want to bring this to the public because I didn’t want the whole CH community to be cast under a bad light. I figured we simply wouldn’t work with each other.

 

A bizarre message

 

Yesterday, however, something was brought to my attention that was posted on the CH Discord back in January. Here is the post:

 

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I don’t know who this Siavash person is: I have never talked to him, never got a message from him, but I understand that he is an influential administrator there. What is written in that post is almost complete misdirection, fabrication and even pure lies, and we’re going to go over it one by one for the benefit of both communities.

 

1)            As anyone who has interacted with us knows, all our legacy content has been vetted extensively and is industry standard. We even have a public Wiki with all documents where any author can study and learn: http://docs.c3univer...title=Main_Page To the best of my knowledge, the barrier to entry to the CH customs portal is essentially that songs have a tempo map. EDIT: Currently chorus has a higher barrier to entry, so songs have much higher requirements. That doesn’t mean Clone Hero authors can’t be very good: not only can they be good, but they are also our good friends in some cases. Of course, any chart can have problems so I won’t say that any chart we released during our 2.5-year original run is perfect, as much as I wouldn’t say that for any chart anywhere. But “awful audio quality” and “horrible charting” are pure misdirection, there is no way around that. We have explained extensively how our database hosts both legacy content and community content, and even for new community content, most of it is produced by people who were either part of the original run or close to that level of quality. This is not a quality war: I have no doubt plenty of CH charts are close to perfect or perfect and we probably have some bad community charts. It’s simply dishonest though to conflate the two together.

2)            The disrespect toward some CH charts and some in the communities has been addressed here publicly  Among some of the quotes there we have “Clone Hero is a positive influence and a great force in the rhythm gaming world” and “Our official position on the Clone Hero community is that it’s great to see more and more people pick up authoring tools and release content that can be enjoyed by an ever growing number of players. We also know there are excellent Clone Hero authors as some of them are also in our community.” To the best of my knowledge, no such public message professing respect for C3 or thankfulness for what we have provided has ever been made public and no effort has ever been made to have people in the CH community represent us fairly.

3)            I have already addressed the dishonest, at best, way to frame the conversion issue

4)            Still, we complied immediately with the request to pull the songs and we went a step further: we allowed authors to be put on a list to make sure none of their content would ever be converted. To the best of my knowledge, no effort has ever been made by CH admins to stop CH users from distributing our songs beyond simply removing them from their portal

 

What really happened with C3X

 

Regarding C3X, in that message we now devolve in pure lies and fabrication. First of all, I’ll post for everyone to see my presentation message. Here we make clear that this is a collaboration, that we would work together and that it would be a collaborative project:

 

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5)            “The CH pack would be made independently of the C3 pack with different charters working on each pack (i.e. not a collaboration)”

As you can see from my message, this is false: never did I mention that an author can’t work on both platforms. Obviously since RB3 standards require full band authoring, if a CH author can only author for guitar and bass, for example, and he/she can’t find anyone to add the other instruments, we can’t label that version for RB3, but it would still be released in the same date pack, even converted to RB3 if the author elects to do so or can have someone to do so on their behalf. For the same reason, if a RB3 author is not able to convert his or her song to CH, we can’t add that song to a CH subpack. Not rocket science really, but worth the explanation

6)            “The CH pack would carry C3 branding despite not having had anything to do with any C3 authors”

C3X is a collective project, a global branding for both RB3 and CH content. Any single song can be worked on by both people from C3 and CH so of course any author can have something to do with any song

7)            “The C3 pack would not be converted to CH upon first release”

In the message I posted “Every week would include RB3 releases also converted to CH and CH releases“ As you can see from my message, this is purely false. Of course we can’t mandate any RB3 author to have the skills to convert to CH or any CH author to have the skills to convert for RB3, so we couldn’t guarantee that ALL songs would be available for both platforms. The point was to create a group that worked together to learn how to do that, as you can read from my message: Get help in converting the new RB3 content properly for Clone Hero, and helping Clone Hero authors do the same for the RB3 format if they want. Since CH authors were convinced by influential people behind the scenes that “C3 bad, hurrrr”, this never materialized because, sadly, the shared group never started. Here follows a private conversation I had with a CH ambassador where I make clear that they are under no obligation to author for RB3 but that it would still be a collaborative effort: shared dates with bigger setlists or even different dates if the theme fits mostly one game or the other. “We are, so to say, on a tour together

 

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8)            “No one on the C3 team would convert the CH pack to C3”

I have to say I have genuinely no idea what “converting to C3” means. Anyone who knows anything about rhythm games knows that C3 is not a game or a format, it’s a community. It’s like saying “No one converts songs to ScoreHero”. This person probably means RB3, but I can only guess because thinking that something can be “converted to C3” is not something I would expect somebody in the authoring community to say. If that is the case, check point 7. Again, nobody can make anybody do anything, so neither the CH people nor the C3 people could guarantee that they would be able to help convert to CH/RB3 each other’s content, but that was the idea. Go back to point 7 and read again the conversation I had with one of their ambassadors, who never told me that they felt “screwed” by our proposal. The whole point was to not force CH authors to work on the same songs C3 authors were working for RB3. Of course if any group of authors wanted to work on the same songs, just for different platforms, that would have been perfect.

9)         “One of the head organizers of the C3X project was the very same charter who left this server over being upset that she was stripped of the charter role, and we would essentially have to answer to her”

Nowhere do I say that CH or C3 authors have to answer to somebody else, but even then, this is petty in a way I can’t explain. By his logic, C3 authors would have had to answer to CH people who used to talk trash about us…

10)         “After days upon days of trying to get the C3X organizer to agree to more favorable terms so that the CSC charters wouldn't be screwed out of this unfairly, he just ended up ghosting us at a certain point and went through with his C3X plans without any Clone Hero component. In spite of this, he still made us sound like the bad guys whenever he discussed the situation on the forum despite him trying to screw over the CH charters.”

You have now seen the discussions, you can make up your own minds. Of course nobody was being screwed or treated unfairly, we went out of our way to clarify that we don’t want to mess with CH standards, rules, etc. But most importantly, this person is flat out lying: I have never ghosted anyone and I have never received a request to agree to more favorable terms that I haven’t discussed. But more importantly, you don’t have to believe me, because I have screenshots proving that each and every discussion I had with any CH author either ended with me thanking them for their time and/or their interactions and with them either ending the discussion (and not me) or them not replying to my messages. I spent months working to get this done so why would I suddenly ghost anyone?

 

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As you can see, I have the last reply on every single discussion with a CH author, in some cases I have the only message there because they ignored me.

 

Then why all of this?

 

Most importantly, we have worked hard to make this happen and if anyone at any time had said “Listen, we like it, but we are being treated unfairly, do you think we could tweak those things?” we would have discussed it. Instead, what happened is that I had to contact authors individually. Guess what: I have no problem going door to door if I think something is just, you’re not gonna break me by making me feel like I can’t speak to an elite group of mods, you’re just gonna sound puerile. But not once was I contacted by the person who posted this message so not once did he interact with me and report on anything we were discussing. Why not sending me a message if he felt this strongly while just misleading people? That’s up to you to decide.

 

Finally, I want to address directly each and every member of the CH community. Your community has been cheated out of the opportunity to work with another community and benefit from each other’s strengths. Don’t believe ME though, read this message, read the screenshots and ask yourself: is the message siavash posted an accurate representation of our interactions? If not, why did he post false and misleading information? And ask yourself: why exactly would we want to screw CH authors out of something that I still have to understand what it is? C3X is real, it’s not a scam, it’s been going on for 8/9 months now. It has no “hidden agenda” (yes, it’s a thing that has been floated to me via DM too…), it’s a collaborative project, what agenda could it have if not have fun and release songs? Why would somebody want to “fracture relationships” between yours and a community that has provided hundreds of songs that you probably played dozens of times and are still playing? We simply wanted to do a project together, clearly somebody decided for you that you didn’t deserve it.

 

We’ll be asking the CH devs to host this reply on the CH Discord as a show of fairness to us to address misleading and false statements. If you are reading this and you see a link to this thread on the CH Discord, we are very thankful to CH admins for allowing us to explain our point of view and present the facts. If you don’t see a link in a few days, I once again submit that you ask yourself why…

 

EDIT: after posting evidence that at least one of their admins lied publicly about what we said and did and wanted to sabotage relationships, we have received no message from the CH management. We won't ask them to post this publicly and they are under no obligation to do so: their silence is enough to explain their position on the matter.



#2 MrPrezident

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 07:25 PM

To sabotage the project and then tell outright lies to the community he represents.  For what purpose?   What a small minded and selfish thing to do.

siavash feel free to chime in anytime.


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#3 EvilChameleon

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 07:32 PM

This is wild shit right here.



#4 MidnightRambler67

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 08:13 PM

Some deep deep messages there , this community has been an  honor and privilige to be part of and a member , even as a non author and a non participant I still respect and praiseand appriciate all the authors and members with all the hard work time and commitment put into all the items , disscusions and of course the magnificent content.

Why would anybody try to sabbotage and slander a community like this.

Thank you Farottone for everything and thanks to all involved

 

Keep it up guys   :golfclap: :golfclap: :golfclap: :golfclap: :golfclap:

 

(hope thats not too deep )



#5 ghostbyob

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 08:39 PM

Unfortunately, if the CH project leader does not want to talk about this, there is no interest whatsoever in demonstrating the toxicity that the administration can currently do for only a couple of subjects who do not want to feel powerless in the Clone Hero Discord.


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#6 zimbabwean

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 08:58 PM

That's just strange. I wonder why the CH authors didn't do their own research. I also would just like to add my support. 



#7 RainbowDash321

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 09:41 PM

I think CH staffs are being selfish and cheaters. C3X and CH community deserve to be together making more songs and making community larger. I respect C3X and CH community seperate but "THIS" is a wild conversation and unfair. We allow CH players to download songs from C3X database and being nice to them. CH don't want us to convert their charts to RB3.



#8 siavash

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 10:54 PM

So a couple of things first.

 

- I'm on your turf right now answering to your questions and concerns. Realize that whatever I say might not appease the C3 users, but I need to address some of the inaccuracies here.

- There's so much to go through in that main post that I'll start with some general points and let you ask questions about specific things. It's easier on me to address what people want answered rather than going through every single screenshot and claim in that post.

- I'll start with this.  26PazoZ.png

 

The main things to take away here are

- We never told anyone that they could not take part in C3X nor did we brainwash/threaten/coerce/etc any charters. 

- This post was made in the Custom Songs Central server and was addressed to the CSC charters. CSC is a group of charters that have, since the start of 2018, consistently released the highest quality setlists, packs, and charts in the community. We are synonymous with "quality" in the community as we have our own sets of standards and guidelines for charters to follow. Several current and former C3 authors have made it clear that our own quality expectations are higher than that of C3 and C3X's. It seems like Farottone and others here are not aware of CSC's existence. When there's talk of "quality standards" and "quality assurance" in any manner during the talks about C3X, it is referring to CSC's standards. 

- Anyone can be a charter for Clone Hero. But not anyone can receive a Charter role in the main Clone Hero server. Not anyone can join Custom Songs Central. Not anyone can take part in the major Clone Hero setlists, such as Anti Hero, Carpal Tunnel Hero, Vortex Hero, and others. That in itself separates C3 and CH's charting scenes. There are chart reviewers in the CH server whose duty it is to check the charts of up-and-coming charters, give them constructive feedback, and provide them with resources to improve their work if they are not yet at a sufficient level to receive the Charter role. We have about 60 charters in the CH server and 33 charters in CSC, to give you an idea of how closed our membership process is compared to C3's open-market style.

 

And with that, I'll just field some questions about whatever you might have. It'll be easier this way for me.



#9 CyclopsDragon

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 10:57 PM

Hi! I'd just like to stop in for a brief moment to clear up a few things in this discussion.

 

1. The C3 conversion drive was handled by one or two people. Associating the rest of the CH charting community with any sense of wrongdoing you direct towards those people makes seems rather misleading. Additionally, one of the main reasons that the conversion of CH charts to RB format wasn't appreciated by many CH charters was that features such as open notes aren't available in RB format, so for any chart requiring the conversion of open notes, the chart that you're playing is an interpretation of their work at best. So by converting our charts to the RB format, you aren't always just converting them; you may be changing them beyond our initial interpretation, and thus this is where our discomfort mainly comes from.

 

2. Even in the situation that we wouldn't have to "answer to" the person who had their charter role removed in the CH server for not meeting our quality standards, the fact still remains that they were a high-up in the project. This raises an important question of the quality standards of the C3X project; given the fact that one of the organizers of the project didn't meet our quality standards, and they were an organizer of the project, we were put into a position where we had to question whether the rest of the project would be held to standards that aren't as high as our own. 

 

3. You, as the management for C3, must accept the consequences that come with knowing that any amount of sub-par content might be hosted on your database. Carpal Tunnel Hero 2 had a decent amount of content that isn't up to our current standards, and admittedly wasn't up to my standards even back when it was released. The team behind CTH2 knows this and acknowledges it. We know that Carpal Tunnel Hero 2 could've been a lot better charted, and we don't try to hide that fact behind the subset of it that was great. You're welcome to say "Yeah, but look at all this other great content" as much as you want, but people tend to remember the poor examples better than the good examples. And even if legacy content was vetted, there is a lot of unvetted content available.

 

As with Siavash's post above, you are perfectly welcome to ask me for questions or clarifications regarding anything I've said here.



#10 FUGGNUTZ

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:07 PM

Gonna step in and say that I'm totally down to collab with any CH charters on anything. I'm sick of the divide in this community. I realize that it doesn't seem like a true collaboration to just have separate releases for each game, so if at all possible, I want to do my part to remedy this. I was rejected for the author role on the CH Discord, but I think that's less because I straight up suck and more because I botched the application. Either way, I'm always trying to improve, and I'd like to try and improve relations in this community if I can.



#11 FujiSkunk

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:09 PM

I believe there is some confusion on CH's part about C3X.  C3X is by invite only.  Not everyone who has contributed (and continues to contribute) to the C3 database is involved in C3X releases.  Now it is true that we encourage people who think they might be interested participating with C3X to ask, and, when we think there is "potential for greatness", the more experienced charters will happily work with the less experienced to help them become good authors and ensure all C3X releases are up to snuff.  That was the goal, anyway.  How well we have achieved that goal, I'll leave as an exercise to the reader, but at any rate, C3X was not an attempt to throw standards to the wind and sully the reputation of any good charter or charting group.  It was an effort to bring quality content to any and all music games whose communities who saw value in collaborating on good content.



#12 MrPrezident

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:15 PM

"The C3 conversion drive was handled by one or two people"

So what?  The people that upload CH conversions to our database are just one or two people.  Then I ask why are a large portion of our database conversions still available in chorus? 

If as you say it has questionable quality then you should remove it, every last one that was uploaded without permission.  If you expect the same from us.  I don't recall being asked if you could take my charts and host them.   Take them down.

Sounds fair doesn't it ?


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#13 siavash

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:16 PM

"The C3 conversion drive was handled by one or two people"

So what?  The people that upload CH conversions to our database are just one or two people.  Then I ask why are a large portion of our database conversions still available in chorus? 

If as you say it has questionable quality then you should remove it, every last one that was uploaded without permission.  If you expect the same from us.  I don't recall being asked if you could take my charts and host them.   Take them down.

Sounds fair doesn't it ?

 

The C3 charts have been gone from Chorus for many months now. I want to say something like 9 months or so. If there are any remaining charts on there, they're not from the massive C3 Drive. The owner of Chorus also has no real desire to rehost C3 charts on the platform in the future considering how problematic they were, both for charters and for players.



#14 MrPrezident

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:18 PM

I mean its not like I didn't check before I posted.

Give me a break 

 

Any other mistruths to share Siavash ?


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#15 siavash

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:23 PM

That's between you and the host of that Drive, which might be ZeroHearts in this case. For all the praise Farottone gave Zero earlier, he was the biggest catalyst of rehosting C3 charts for CH players. Those rehosts have absolutely nothing to do with myself, CSC, or C3X.

 

Multiple times in the past, Farottone asserted that C3 had no problems with their charts being rehosted for CH players, so the owner of Chorus, Paturages, had no reason to think they needed to be taken down.

 

To make it clear what charts are high quality, people with the Charter role in the CH server have their charts appear on Chorus with a blue nametag. Chorus isn't about to remove every chart that doesn't meet the Charter role standards or CSC standards, as many people are indexed on the site with their original work that are trying to improve. But if you do not like your charts being hosted on Chorus, you would have to contact Paturages. I've already made your concerns apparent to him in the meantime.



#16 Farottone

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:28 PM

I want to be clear that we started this thread not to ask questions but to explain to anyone in our and your community how things went with proof of what happened. It's important because you not only chose not to contact me directly, you not only chose to say things that are misleading or false, you doubled down on it right now. The screenshot you posted today contains more fabrications. Here is what happened when a CH ambassador tried to make it look, in one of our discussions, that C3 would have made all the decisions:

 

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See? Simple. I specifically told him that it's the opposite of what we wanted. We reiterated ad nauseam that this would have been a collaborative project where people would have worked together. With ZeroHearts we even discussed a shared group of admins with CH and C3 people.

 

This is not a discussion about what we need to know or what has been done to our work: we already said plenty of times we are glad more players are playing our charts. There's no need to divert the attention to that part of the discussion that has already been addressed. We just needed to provide proof that we made a genuine inclusive effort to do a project together, and that someone lied, flat out, to the authors there. Who wrote the message that was posted here in this thread has misled CH authors. Why? I don't know, you answer it, best guess is you didn't want our 2 communities together.



#17 siavash

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:37 PM

When several current and former C3 authors are telling us they're skeptical of the idea you're presenting us, you can't be surprised that the overwhelming opinion was that we couldn't trust you. How is it a collaboration when we're working independently? Why was Sygenysis asked to lead the CH team of charters, when he's already primarily a CH contributor? That's not a collaboration.

 

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The point of this isn't to expose these people. The point is to show how people that we assumed would be the most understanding of the collaboration were the same people that were extremely skeptical of its intentions and how elitist the endeavor seemed to be.



#18 CyclopsDragon

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:43 PM

I'm simply here to clear up parts of this post that seemed to be missing information. My above post serves only to shed some light on what I saw as a misrepresentation of our goals and ideals. I don't personally have anything to say further, because a lot of what's been said in this thread is not addressed towards me, nor does it apply to me, or in the case of what was said to me by MrPrezident, has already been addressed by Siavash.



#19 FUGGNUTZ

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:43 PM

To address the quality control concerns:

 

The intention of C3X was to provide quality releases every week or so. So far, it's been successful, but the quality is still questionable in some instances. Peer review is not required for a C3X release. It's left up to the charters themselves to review their own content before release. This doesn't really work because it's very easy to miss mistakes when you're the one who made them in the first place. There are also variable levels of "quality" within individual releases. People's individual standards for what is good and what isn't influence their charting decisions. It's easy to say that the docs are the end-all-be-all answer to this, but the docs are outdated and have misinformation on some pages.

 

Some instruments are worse than others in this regard. Drums in particular are the most varied in terms of quality because there are so many different ideals for Drums that can be seen as "ideal" depending on what you view is right. I'm in the camp of pad accuracy above everything else, but not everyone is. Can you fault them for having a different view on how to do it? Not really. Another common talking point I see brought up is the occasional inclusion of other instruments on Guitar/Bass parts. This is simply a community difference, in my opinion. It's easier for us to say that an instrument belongs on one specific part when you also have a Keys part to work with. Many people here are purists when it comes to instrument divisions, mostly because of the inclusion of the Keys part. There's no real reason to chart a synth line to Guitar when you can do it on Keys and it'll be considered more "realistic". Clone Hero charters don't have this option, so you see different results.

 

Furthermore, C3 has an open database, just as Chorus does. In both cases, you find questionable content if you look enough. This isn't an easy hobby, really. You have to know a lot about music to chart properly. I respect anyone who puts out good charts for any game, because it's difficult to be good at this. With this post, I'm just trying to contextualize some things for everyone. If you want my opinion on what should be done to fix this, here is what I think:

 

  • Make peer review required for C3X charts, or find a good way to incentivize it.
  • Recognize authors who regularly put out the very highest quality charts with a system different from C3X releases.
  • Update documents and templates to assist in the charting process for newer charters.

This is significantly easier said than done, but it would go a long way. Shoutout to all of the CH people who came here to talk.



#20 Farottone

Farottone

    The Lean Mean Customs Charting Machine

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Posted May 3, 2019 - 11:51 PM

Another screenshot that has nothing to do with the lies told (the problem wasn't that charters were not interested, that's fine and I personally had some rejections that I documented here in a fair context, the problem was that our proposal was being mangled to make it look bad) but actually adds another layer of misdirection: 2 of the people taken grossly out of context in that mashup have worked hard for me to make the project happen. Also, congratulations on exposing names of people who might not have wanted their names dragged in here, I'm sure they're ecstatic.






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