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Custom venue questions


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#1 Atruejedi

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Posted January 17, 2018 - 09:41 PM

Hi.

 

Yes, I've read the documents.

 

I've spent so much time on this page and searching the forum but I still need information. So here are questions to which I haven't found answers:

 

1. In the VENUE track, can text events touch each other? This is going to come up a lot below. I imported an auto-generated venue using Magma and each event flag seemed to have a tiny bit of space between the others. I assume that is by design. Some seem to be able to touch and others not... but this is my first experience with this stuff, so I might be wrong. So, can events touch each other? If yes, which? If no, which?

 

2. Related to the above question... The documents recommend "stacking" events in case a certain band member is missing (i.e. no bassist because of a keyboardist). What exactly is the best way to stack? It seems like a bad idea to put two events very, very close to each other, because in the case that those two band mates are both there, the camera will rapidly cut from one to the other. Or do you layer them exactly on top of each other and the game picks one at random? That's assuming the answer to the above question is yes, events can touch.

 

3. Lighting. I'm a Wii user so this is even harder than usual... it's tricky to notice effects when they are somewhat lackluster. That being said... the [next] flag is used all the time and on-beat in the auto-generated venue I've shredded to pieces. That makes sense. But I am curious as to what, exactly, [next] does. I know it affects the lights of the venue. But how? Does it turn them on and off? Does it make them change color? Are the colors venue-dependent? Are there different numbers of cycles? For example, does one venue cycle three lights in sequence, but another venue cycles five lights in sequence?

 

4. On that same topic, I assume using [next] and [previous] could be neat to use the same two lights over and over again. But, again.... I don't know what effects those lights actually display. And what is [first]? How do you know what's first? So many details are missing.

 

5. Can post processing effects stack on top of one another? That is to say, can two have an effect simultaneously? I don't think so, but I just want to know definitively.

 

6. Same question goes for lighting.

 

7. Does the Wii even have access to spotlights? Doesn't seem like it.

 

8. Sometimes non-vocalists are not singing certain parts during singalongs, even though everything seems correct. Do certain animations block lip syncing? I'm trying to get the guitarist and vocalist to sing a line together, but the guitarist only sings the first half of the line. So weird.

 

9. Using [lighting (manual_warm)], for example, would make the lights appear warm. Does the manual part mean it will cycle through a different warm light every time [next] is used? And does loop_warm mean no [next] flags are needed? If true, how does the loop determine when to change the effect?

 

10. Last question. I'm trying to use [bloom.pp] and it's working... but it's activating at the FOLLOWING event, which is [ProFilm_a.pp]. Could this be happening because I had [ProFilm_a.pp] stacked on top of [coop_v_closeup]?

 

Thank you kindly. This is fun, but extremely frustrating to test because of how the Wii works.


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#2 DemonUnicorns

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Posted January 17, 2018 - 10:23 PM

1. Yes they can touch
2. Yes you layer them
3. It changes to the next color for the selected lighting (assuming that the selected lighting supports the next feature)
4. First goes to the first light color for a lighting. This way you could do the first three colors (first, next, next) then go back to the first
5. Only one post process effect at a time, but a common practice is transitioning one into the other to achieve an effect similar to having both at the same time
6. Same answer as 5. Only one, but you can transition
7. Don't know this one
8. The sing along line must be present for the entire duration you want that musician to sing. Additionally, the dry vocal track for that musician must also be present
9. You got it. I believe the loop changes based on the beat track. Maybe every 1/2 or 1/4 measure
10. This might be due to a transition event. The first time you put a post processing effect, the game sets it to that. If you put a new effect, the game will turn to that right where it is placed. However, if you put the same effect again before you change to the next effect, the game will transition between the two starting with the second placement of the first effect



#3 Atruejedi

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Posted January 17, 2018 - 11:07 PM

1. Yes they can touch
2. Yes you layer them
3. It changes to the next color for the selected lighting (assuming that the selected lighting supports the next feature)
4. First goes to the first light color for a lighting. This way you could do the first three colors (first, next, next) then go back to the first
5. Only one post process effect at a time, but a common practice is transitioning one into the other to achieve an effect similar to having both at the same time
6. Same answer as 5. Only one, but you can transition
7. Dont know this one
8. The sing along line must be present for the entire duration you want that musician to sing. Additionally, the dry vocal track for that musician must also be present

 

@1 and 2: Thank you for explicitly saying this!

 

@3 and 4: But it's all essentially random because you never know what venue it'll be? Or do all lighting systems use the same sequence of colors?

 

@8: Dryvox are present and working throughout the song, but not on this particular event. I'm using [directed_duo_guitar] and the guitarist is supposed to say "she fell, she fell" but only says "she fell" once.  The lead singer lip syncs it twice. The dryvox for HARM1 and HARM2 say it twice. The singalong tube and phrase markers cover the area. I'm starting to think it's just the nature of that animation.
 

9. You got it. I believe the loop changes based on the beat track. Maybe every 1/2 or 1/4 measure
10. This might be due to a transition event. The first time you put a post processing effect, the game sets it to that. If you put a new effect, the game will turn to that right where it is placed. However, if you put the same effect again before you change to the next effect, the game will transition between the two starting with the second placement of the first effect


@10. Ah, I missed that. Let me check...

[ProFilm_a.pp] starts off the song and I don't change that until I use [bloom.pp] 2 minutes in. Next comes [ProFilm_a.pp] like 5 seconds later. Is that too rapid of a change? Because bloom is activating at ProFilm_a. The effect after that is [clean_trails.pp], which works. I don't think I missed spotting anything... but it is tedious.

 

Thank you very, very much for your response!


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#4 DemonUnicorns

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Posted January 18, 2018 - 12:09 AM

@3 and 4: But it's all essentially random because you never know what venue it'll be? Or do all lighting systems use the same sequence of colors?

 

I'm pretty sure they use the same sequence of colors. Which venue you are at should not affect the use of these events.

 

@8: Dryvox are present and working throughout the song, but not on this particular event. I'm using [directed_duo_guitar] and the guitarist is supposed to say "she fell, she fell" but only says "she fell" once.  The lead singer lip syncs it twice. The dryvox for HARM1 and HARM2 say it twice. The singalong tube and phrase markers cover the area. I'm starting to think it's just the nature of that animation.

 

Are they using the exact same vocal take for that part, or are they from different takes? Getting lip sync to work correctly from a dry vocal track is tricky. Sometimes the game gets the animations spot on, other times it doesn't work well at all. If they're the exact same take then I am baffled. 

 

@10. Ah, I missed that. Let me check...

[ProFilm_a.pp] starts off the song and I don't change that until I use [bloom.pp] 2 minutes in. Next comes [ProFilm_a.pp] like 5 seconds later. Is that too rapid of a change? Because bloom is activating at ProFilm_a. The effect after that is [clean_trails.pp], which works. I don't think I missed spotting anything... but it is tedious.

 

[bloom.pp] is activating at the second [ProFilm_a.pp] that you said you put 5 seconds later? I guess first of all make sure that they are all Text events. I've sometimes had troubles with the first lighting/pp effect not working properly, but that was normally when I tried to use it before measure 3 (when the song starts). In trial and error I would try putting an effect before [bloom.pp] to see how that affects your issue.



#5 Atruejedi

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Posted January 18, 2018 - 07:32 AM

Are they using the exact same vocal take for that part, or are they from different takes? Getting lip sync to work correctly from a dry vocal track is tricky. Sometimes the game gets the animations spot on, other times it doesn't work well at all. If they're the exact same take then I am baffled.


The same take. The HARM1 part is "She fell, she fell, right under my spell." For HARM2, I just removed "right under my spell." Yet HARM2 is only saying "she fell" one time. I'm stupefied.
 

[bloom.pp] is activating at the second [ProFilm_a.pp] that you said you put 5 seconds later? I guess first of all make sure that they are all Text events. I've sometimes had troubles with the first lighting/pp effect not working properly, but that was normally when I tried to use it before measure 3 (when the song starts). In trial and error I would try putting an effect before [bloom.pp] to see how that affects your issue.

 

I'm starting to think bloom.pp is somehow bugged on the Wii. I'm still trouble shooting (which, again, takes FOR EVER because of the Wii's process) but I've determined it isn't a problem with MiloMod (I was actually hoping it was, lolol).

 

Related: This whole time I've been loading the custom on the Wii with MiloMod's converted venue data and it's (apparently) had no issues. But when I tried to simply use the C3 Tools converter without MiloMod, the custom's animations and venue broke. This was somewhat expected because I had keyboard player events throughout the custom. But as an experiment I removed all of those events and played the custom as "normal" with guitar/bass/drums/vocals and the venue was still broken. I thought perhaps it would function without the keyboardist events, but apparently simply having a keyboard part in the data breaks it? Geeze.

 

Left to try:

 

1. Replace bloom with another effect and keep the [ProFilm_a.pp] that appears 5 seconds later. I replaced bloom with film_silvertone and discovered that film_silvertone (and, in retrospect, bloom) were transitioning from the very beginning of the song when the first post processing effect started at 1.1 (0 seconds) the entire way to the second post processing marker at 2 minutes in.

 

 

Here's a "timeline" of my post-processing effect events in the venue track:

 

0:00        [ProFilm_a.pp]

 

It gets grayer and grayer until...

 

1:58        [film_silvertone.pp]

 

For a split second I had the profilm_a I wanted...

 

2:02        [ProFilm_a.pp]

 

But then, a full 6 seconds later, at 2:08 it suddenly starts becoming blurry! Why? Because next, almost a full minute later, is...

 

3:05        [clean_trails.pp]

 

Now it's sharp. But then it starts to turn red. Because next is...

 

3:20        [film_contrast_red.pp]

 

And then come the reds and blues. Because...

 

3:40        [ProFilm_psychedelic_blue_red.pp]

 

This is not acting as the page described. All the effects are transitioning and happening way before I want them to happen. I was under the impression blending would only occur when two of the same processing effects happened one after another with nothing different in between.

 

PLEASE HELP :)

 

To try to fix it, I put an "extra" [ProFilm_a.pp] at measure 3.1. No luck.

 

2. Keep bloom but move [ProFilm_a.pp] to significantly later. I moved it to happen a few seconds later in the timeline, but that doesn't seem to matter after having discovered the above.

 

More random stuff I've discovered:

 

When [directed_duo_bass] and [directed_duo_guitar] stack, the venue prefers [directed_duo_bass]. This page seems to say the opposite. Any way I can edit that page?


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#6 DemonUnicorns

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Posted January 18, 2018 - 03:49 PM

Could I take a look at your midi file?



#7 Oddbrother

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Posted January 18, 2018 - 04:05 PM

When [directed_duo_bass] and [directed_duo_guitar] stack, the venue prefers [directed_duo_bass]. This page seems to say the opposite.

Noted for documentation.
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#8 Atruejedi

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Posted January 18, 2018 - 04:17 PM

Could I take a look at your midi file?

 
A thousand times yes. I'm a newb. I hope it's an easy fix. PM sent.
 

Noted for documentation.

Anything else I should note when doing these experiments? Like, I've scribbled down crap like this...

 

[directed_vocals_cls] he dropped to his knees
[directed_crowd_b] went to the crowd, duh
[directed_bass_cam] just jammed out
[directed_guitar_cam_pr] ran forward toward end of stage

 

...but I'm not sure if it's of any value.

 

Between [directed_guitar_cam_pt] and [directed_bass_cam], [directed_bass_cam] was preferred.

Then when I loaded the song again and it was a different venue, between [directed_guitar_cam_pt] and [directed_bass_cam], [directed_guitar_cam_pt] was preferred.

 

Huh???

 

Between [coop_g_near] and [coop_b_near], bass is being chosen (at least sometimes) instead of guitar, even though guitar is supposed to have "seniority."


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#9 Atruejedi

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Posted January 19, 2018 - 03:12 PM

 

Are they using the exact same vocal take for that part, or are they from different takes? Getting lip sync to work correctly from a dry vocal track is tricky. Sometimes the game gets the animations spot on, other times it doesn't work well at all. If they're the exact same take then I am baffled.

 

I figured this out. The dryvox wave lengths were slightly longer than the singalong tubes and vocal tubes. Once I increased the singalong tube length to include all of the wavelength of the dryvox, it worked, even though it's just trailing off. Huzzah!

 

Also, big shout-out to DemonUnicorns for his assistance behind-the-scenes trying to slay the post-processing transition bug.


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#10 DemonUnicorns

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Posted January 19, 2018 - 06:50 PM

 

I figured this out. The dryvox wave lengths were slightly longer than the singalong tubes and vocal tubes. Once I increased the singalong tube length to include all of the wavelength of the dryvox, it worked, even though it's just trailing off. Huzzah!

 

Fantastic!



#11 i0brendan0

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Posted January 19, 2018 - 10:06 PM

I think I know your problem with the PP. The original PP is [ProFilm_a.pp] so it's possible that the game sees another [ProFilm_a.pp] and thinks "I need to transition this". I don't know about the other ones but that's my 2 cents.


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#12 Atruejedi

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Posted February 12, 2018 - 07:59 AM

This post processing problem is back with a vengeance. I'm wrapping up Black River Killer by Blitzen Trapper. Here are the effects I'm using and the order in which they appear:

 

0:00 = [film_sepia_ink.pp]

1:33 = [horror_movie_special.pp]

1:36 = [film_sepia_ink.pp]

2:25 = [horror_movie_special.pp]

2:28 = [film_sepia_ink.pp]

 

Once again, from the beginning until 1:33, there is a constant transition from sepia to horror. Then it resets to normal for a few seconds, then it begins transitioning again, and resets.

 

I just want sepia the entire time minus two sections of a few seconds of horror.

 

I'm having the same issue with MoneyGrabber by Fitz and the Tantrums. As an experiment, I didn't place a single post processing event until [ProFilm_mirror_a.pp] at 1:25 into the song.

 

Wouldn't you know it? That's the first event, over a minute into the song, and the song is using that mirror effect from the very beginning at 0:00.

 

Is this normal??? Is this a Wii issue???

 

P.S. Is it possible to make the drummer hit his drum sticks together during the count-in?


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#13 Atruejedi

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Posted February 12, 2018 - 01:01 PM

Here is how I had to rig Holy Mountain to do what I wanted:

 

KOSCCYc.png

 

Basically, every event transitions into the following event. So film_16mm stays film_16mm up to measure 66. Then it transitions into clean_trails. Clean_trails stays "pure" clean_trails until it hits the second clean_trails flag. Then it morphs into film_16mm, which stays as pure film_16mm up to measure 102. You should get the idea now.

 

Is this normal? This isn't how the documents describe this process.


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#14 Oddbrother

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Posted February 12, 2018 - 11:40 PM

Basically, every event transitions into the following event. So film_16mm stays film_16mm up to measure 66. Then it transitions into clean_trails. Clean_trails stays "pure" clean_trails until it hits the second clean_trails flag. Then it morphs into film_16mm, which stays as pure film_16mm up to measure 102. You should get the idea now.
 
Is this normal? This isn't how the documents describe this process.

Yes. That is the exact way of transitioning between lighting and post-processing effects.

#15 Atruejedi

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Posted February 13, 2018 - 03:20 AM

Yes. That is the exact way of transitioning between lighting and post-processing effects.

 

But that's the problem. I don't want to transition. However, if I place only two different post-processing events, they will transition.

 

Like I said, the documents don't describe the transitions like this. They say that one post processing event instantly turns into the next unless a transition is purposely added. For me, transitions seem to be the default.


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