Jump to content

Avatar

How to author floor/tom hands crossing


  • Please log in to reply
7 replies to this topic

#1 yaniv297

yaniv297
  • 117 posts

Posted January 9, 2018 - 08:04 PM

So I'm charting drums to Roulette by Bruce Springsteen.

It starts with a (really awesome) floor-tom drum beat. You can see it, and how it's played, in this video right at the beginning. As you can see, the way Max Weinberg plays it involves some very serious hands crossing.

 

Now I know the general rule in RB is, avoid hands crossing as much as you can. That's why we have disco beats and all. But does that still apply here? Unlike disco beat (which in reality does not involve hands crossing), here the whole beat relies on it. I see no other way to chart it. Maybe switch the yellow and green around (sort of a manual disco beat), but it's wrong musically and also makes this part much easier than it should be.

 

What do you think? Is it ok to keep it that way despite the hands crossing?



#2 Farottone

Farottone

    The Lean Mean Customs Charting Machine

  • Administrator
  • 6,311 posts

Posted January 9, 2018 - 09:35 PM

With toms it's way easier to avoid crossing hands. You can play the floor tom open handed or, if you need to use both hands to hit toms and cymbals, keep the main beat on Bt and you have Y and G open for both toms and cymbals.



#3 yaniv297

yaniv297
  • 117 posts

Posted January 10, 2018 - 03:52 PM

Thanks, however I'm not sure I understand your answer...

 

As seen in the video, the beat goes (F=Floor, T+Tom):

FFFFTFTF (repeat). There's also crash hits later.

 

Are you suggesting to play the floor with the right hand only? It's very difficult because the song is very fast.

The logical way for a right handed drummer to play it is just like Weinberg does - crossing his right hand to hit the toms.

 

It's a principle questions - I know we avoid hands overlap if the original beat doesn't have it (disco beat, etc). But what if the original beat is very overlap based? do we still avoid it?

 

I charted it in the simplest way: Floor = green, Tom = yellow. GGGGYGYG. Than the crash in the blue one.

But to play this you'll probably need to overlap your hand. My question is, is this ok? If not, what should I do?



#4 Farottone

Farottone

    The Lean Mean Customs Charting Machine

  • Administrator
  • 6,311 posts

Posted January 10, 2018 - 04:18 PM

And mine was a principle answer. :) You can either play it open handed (but in this case it's too fast) or you can use two handed beat based on Bt. When the right hand needs to accent, it goes to Gt, when the left hand needs to accent, it goes to Yt. Sometimes fudging things a beat is ok. In the immortal words of HMX:

 

 

it’s a videogame - not a lesson in drum hardware!

 

With that said, if you feel the song NEEDS to be extremely difficult and you want to force the player to experience that, you can do as you said. But frankly, to me that intro seems like it's a two handed pattern with accents on higher toms, I don't think it's supposed to show off some special technique like in a drums solo for example.



#5 yaniv297

yaniv297
  • 117 posts

Posted January 10, 2018 - 05:19 PM

And mine was a principle answer. :) You can either play it open handed (but in this case it's too fast) or you can use two handed beat based on Bt. When the right hand needs to accent, it goes to Gt, when the left hand needs to accent, it goes to Yt. Sometimes fudging things a beat is ok. In the immortal words of HMX:

 

 

With that said, if you feel the song NEEDS to be extremely difficult and you want to force the player to experience that, you can do as you said. But frankly, to me that intro seems like it's a two handed pattern with accents on higher toms, I don't think it's supposed to show off some special technique like in a drums solo for example.

 

Alright that was clearer. So basically you're suggesting moving the bit around to avoid overlap. This specific beat only includes right hand accents, so it only needs two pads.

 

As for the second point - I don't feel songs NEEDS to be difficult. Actually I chart lot of easy songs. Honestly I can't even play most of the drum songs that are tier 5 or above, so I definitely don't enjoy insane difficulty.

 

However, I do feel charts should be as close to the actual drummer as possible - not harder but not easier either. I understand the need to avoid overlap that's caused by RB limitation, like the disco beat - charting that with overlap would be creating unnecessary difficulty, as the real drummer doesn't need to do it. But in this case - I'm just trying to replicate what Weinberg is doing, even if it's difficult.

 

I guess I just don't understand the exception you make here. When a guitar solo or drum fill is hard to play (let's say very fast guitar solo), we don't change them to make them easier. We try to replicate the original as close as possible - as long as it's playable in RB. So why the exception here? That's what the drummer is playing, and it's definitely playable in RB, even if it's uncomfortable. Why do we need to make it easier than it is?

 

In my mind, I'm just keeping the spirit of the original beat. I don't think charting overlap makes it unnecessarily difficult - I feel that avoiding it will make it much easier than the original beat.

 

Of course in the end of the day there are rules to charting and I'll abide by them, I just wondered what's the rule here. My opinion is definitely go with overlap.



#6 Farottone

Farottone

    The Lean Mean Customs Charting Machine

  • Administrator
  • 6,311 posts

Posted January 10, 2018 - 06:26 PM

What I mean is you don't HAVE to cross hands to play this pattern, you can simply reposition your floor tom on a real set or have a different configuration, never mind the fact that going from a floor tom to a middle tom on a rack is very different from going from a pad on your right to a pad on its left, same level.

 

What you're saying is that you want to mimic the gesture the drummer is making, but that would mean that every single song you ever authored and ever will, with the exceptions of those using disco flips, is essentially wrong, because you're not mimicking the gesture the drummer is making while they cross hands to play the hi hat with the right and the snare with the left (and once again, the positioning of a hi hat and a snare is nothing like the positioning of the 2 adjacent pads in game). Only someone with a pro set would somehow cross hands. By making the player not cross hands on a standad kit it's, according to your logic, nowhere close to the actual drummer. The game kit is simply different from a real kit, for many reasons.

 

Now, as I said, if you're authoring a solo during which the drummer makes things harder by crossing hands to show off skills (Neil Peart has some good sections like that), that is a case I could see as credible. But this is not the case, it's a simple pattern that requires crossing hands just because of the way the kit is set up. You can still do that and technically there is nothing wrong with keeping the floor tom on G and a high tom on Y, but that has nothing to do with replicating the gesture of the drummer, which btw uses a multi-level kit for both toms and cymbals.



#7 yaniv297

yaniv297
  • 117 posts

Posted January 11, 2018 - 12:21 AM

Oh well. I don't agree with the kit configuration argument - I mean technically yes, you can set up your kit in many insane ways, but Weinberg uses a pretty standard one that's very similar to the RB one. Both kits have the floor to the right of the tom.

Hihat/snare without crossing is a game convention. I'm not going to argue with it. There's also no other choice really the way the set is built.

 

However, the one argument you have that's resonating with me, is the fact that Weinberg uses a multi level kit. Hitting the tom on the higher level seems much easier than overlapping on the RB kit - let alone if you need to pass two pads (green to yellow). That's definitely unnecessarily difficult.

 

I'll see what I'll do. Either I'll change it to blue/yellow overlap - much easier to play - or I'll switch it around to remove overlap.



#8 Farottone

Farottone

    The Lean Mean Customs Charting Machine

  • Administrator
  • 6,311 posts

Posted January 11, 2018 - 12:52 AM

However, the one argument you have that's resonating with me, is the fact that Weinberg uses a multi level kit.

 

No, any kit is multilevel, not just his. :) The heights of snare/floor tom, toms and cymbals are 99% of the times different, and we're talking basic kits here, more complex kits can have added layers. Any effort to mimic a real kit that doesn't take into account these differences will result in something difficult for the sake of it. You can make the argument "x tom = x color" and have players play an awkward pattern, but the same pattern can't be justified by "that's who the drummer really plays it on a real kit".






2 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 2 guests, 0 anonymous users