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Just a small charting question.


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#21 Farottone

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 01:55 AM

Why do people on this forum refuse to accept that EOF has improved and is fully capable of making RB3 charts on it's own.
Every single issue you guys have mentioned is fully implemented and working in EOF.

Can you upload an EOF exported MIDI that shows that? It's easy to check that, and if all is good now with EOF we can now tell people that most issues have been corrected. :)

 

But I have to say, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would be upset about information on a piece of software. In April Froogs himself posted about an issue that prevented an EOF MIDI file to be compiled in Magma, why would it be a problem saying that EOF is not as Rock Band-compliant as Reaper?



#22 mb1nightmare

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 02:08 AM

I don't want to start an argument, I am just genuinely curious.
 
Why do people on this forum refuse to accept that EOF has improved and is fully capable of making RB3 charts on it's own.
Every single issue you guys have mentioned is fully implemented and working in EOF.

We never said EoF can't make RB3 charts on it's own. EOF can, but with some problems. I have some customs from Froogs and Alex and I bet that, if I extract the mid and analyze it, I'll find unquantized notes (and maybe other problems).

So if you guys still refuse to accept what EOF is capable of, then obviously my charts wouldn't be welcome here, so this will be the last post I will post here, and I'll remove CAFO from the database later after work. The same could be said for Alex's charts, which I may remove as well, if I feel like it.
And don't get me wrong, I love most of the people here, and most of you are very friendly (Farottone being a good example), but I just don't feel welcome here anymore.
 
So with that, bye guys, if anyone wants to contact me about anything, you can at FoF (AbelArcher).

It's unfortunate to see you acting like this: "hey guys, if you don't accept that EoF is as good as Reaper, I'll get out of here cause I just don't feel welcome here anymore". If you want to do so there is nothing I can do about it...

And I'll make Farottone's words, my words:
"But I have to say, I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would be upset about information on a piece of software. In April Froogs himself posted about an issue that prevented an EOF MIDI file to be compiled in Magma, why would it be a problem saying that EOF is not as Rock Band-compliant as Reaper?"

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#23 Alternity

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 02:12 AM

I have to say the same as these two. I have used both softwares; they're both great at what they do; but EoF is being tailored for RS more than anything; as REAPER is an actual MIDI editing software. Why getting angry for facts?



#24 Bansheeflyer

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 02:19 AM

Ooh good, controversy!

 

I think threatening to leave for "feeling unwelcome" because certain members don't agree with the charting software you like is a bit overreactive. There's nothing wrong with liking a certain software over the other and if people don't agree with what you like then you shrug and move on.

 

From what I understand of EoF and REAPER it's like using GIMP rather than Photoshop or washing dishes by hand rather than using the dishwasher. They both get the job done but one is usually easier and usually produces better quality for the solution you want. REAPER is simply better-tailored for Rock Band, EoF isn't. There's nothing wrong with that. Not every system produces the same quality product.

 

If you want to use EoF to chart, then do so. It's not as quality in certain areas as REAPER and it's a little more difficult to use but it works so if you want to use it, use it. Nobody needs to make this such a big deal. That goes for both sides.


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#25 mb1nightmare

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 02:21 AM

Why getting angry for facts?


That is the million dollar question! Lol

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#26 Archer

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 02:31 AM

a bit overreactive.

I will fully admit and accept that I am overreacting, I just have multiple reasons that makes it completely justified, which I will not go into.



#27 Chips

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 03:20 AM

This "taking my ball and going home" behavior comes off as incredibly childish to me. I am curious what these other reasons are since this small debate over using EoF and Reaper can't be the whole issue.



#28 Archer

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 03:49 AM

@Chips
Same to this as I said to Banshee, I fully admit and accept that this is the case.
And you are correct, there are further reasons, and I'm just simply venting off more anger to this than I should be.

I do apologise for my childish and overreactive behaviour, but just think about how high amounts of stress and negative emotions can take over a person's personality.
Now that I'm at work and I cooled down a bit, I apologise to everyone here.
I'm still not going to post songs here (different reason than what I previously said), but I'm not going anywhere. I just happened to get some really bad news, and if I would have gotten it tomorrow instead, this would have never happened.

If you guys also look at my past post history, you will see I'm normally not like this. So again, I apologise to everyone, and I hope you can forgive my behaviour.

#29 Chips

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 04:06 AM

That's completely understandable. It just seemed like it came out of nowhere so I was definitely caught off guard by it.



#30 Bansheeflyer

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 09:56 AM

Christ Archer you're the last person who needs bad news.

 

We're here if you need anything, whether you're charting in EoF or REAPER. ;)


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#31 TrojanNemo

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 03:36 PM

Let's see if I can clarify some things.

 

REAPER is simply better-tailored for Rock Band, EoF isn't.

 

Incorrect. REAPER predates RBN and is a full featured DAW. What we use of it for RB3 customs and RBN content is a small portion of what REAPER can do. REAPER was never created or tailored to RBN use. Instead, HMX realized it needed a good DAW with MIDI capabilities, picked REAPER for reasons only they know, and then set off to create the tools that would create the song files (Magma and MagmaCompiler).

 

So the point here is that Magma was created to expect and handle REAPER MIDI files created using HMX's template and instructions. RB3 can and will work with zero length notes, with MIDI files using running status, etc. Magma will not accept those files. Why? Because that's not what Harmonix wanted when they designed the system and they enforce those rules arbitrarily. As an example - Magma produced 256x256 DXT1 (lowest quality) image files for album art. But now Magma: C3 can produce up to 2048x2048 DXT5 (highest quality) image files for album art and guess what? They work fine in game.

 

Magma is the gatekeeper here, but only because of arbitrary restrictions that HMX put into place. A lot of those I removed and/or softened, but some of them can't be modified and you have to live with them. As a result, REAPER is the desirable place to work from.

 

I'm sure you can put together a Magma compliant MIDI using EOF or hell, using a binary editor. But using REAPER is ultimately the easiest way to consistently get Magma approved MIDI files.

 

EOF was created for charting songs for FOF...or did you all miss the "On Fire" part of the name? Naturally, since then, raynebc has improved and expanded into RockSmith, Rock Band, etc. Raynebc is an incredibly talented guy, but he is just one guy. He can't be expected to accomplish what the entire team at Cockos has been doing for well over a decade with REAPER.

 

So don't think of it as attacking one or praising the other. They both have great features, and they both excel at some things that the other does not. Unfortunately, some of the things that still need work on EOF can and does affect a MIDI's ability to pass through Magma and/or may create problems in game. So we recommend REAPER as that is what the designer of the game intended to be used. If you go outside what HMX recommended and the tools and tutorials HMX provided for the creation of this content - it doesn't mean you're doing something wrong...but you have to be open to the idea that you will break something and/or encounter difficulties solely as a result of your choice to go beyond what was intended.

 

So use EOF if you want. But don't complain when Magma refuses to compile your song, or if your tempo map isn't accurate, or if you crash your console.

 

If you manage to create a MIDI file that passes Magma and plays as expected in game, all using EOF - nobody is going to tell you that your custom is not wanted simply because you used EOF. Of course not.



#32 Bansheeflyer

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Posted December 21, 2016 - 10:40 PM

Let me rephrase:

 

I'm aware REAPER wasn't designed for Rock Band. But as I understand it because it works as a MIDI compiler it's better-suited to Rock Band.


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#33 raynebc

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Posted December 22, 2016 - 09:24 PM

The main timing limitations EOF has is that internally it uses real timing (milliseconds) instead of MIDI timing (delta ticks). This is largely because EOF was originally designed for simplicity instead of honoring strict timing requirements the way Rock Band does. I don't even remember if RB customs existed when EOF was first released to users.

Converting to MIDI timing causes some complications because fractional numbers have to be rounded up or down, and the chosen direction can leave the timing one delta tick out of quantization in MIDI. This doesn't necessarily prevent the MIDI from compiling or working as desired in-game, it just isn't something that meets Rock Band's overall standards. More appropriate rounding or better timing conversion is the kind of thing I can try to improve. If anybody has any recommended easy fixes (such as the correct delta timing is probably always going to be an even number instead of an odd number), it could be implemented quite quickly (ie. new hotfix within a day or two). There is probably a more comprehensive fix for me to look into, such as determining a millisecond time's fractional distance into a beat (ie. 1/4 of the way into a beat) and multiplying that fraction by the MIDI's time division (ie. 480) to get a result that is guaranteed to be a quantized MIDI timing. This kind of solution would not have been feasible for me years ago, but new features I've added since then make this approach easier to take now.

This difficulty does disadvantage EOF over a formal MIDI editor in regard to timing, but where EOF has weaknesses it also has strengths. Rhythm game charts are outside the scope of MIDI editors' purpose in general, and suitable functionality often has to be added in with plugins, scripts or done without entirely. I'd hate to think how much time it would take to author complex pro guitar/bass arrangements in Reaper alone unless there is some powerful plugin or other Reaper customization to assist. All said and done, a MIDI editor will still often be needed for individual delta tick precision or for features that EOF is missing entirely such as pro keys or harmonies.

After I was told it was fixed I checked a chart done with the latest version and the issue was still there. Maybe raynebc can shed some light on it.

This is the first time I've seen anybody say it wasn't working. If you can provide an example EOF project demonstrating this problem, I'll look into it. One caveat I'll mention is that the new time signature handling was only enabled by default for new projects to avoid breaking any old charts. If your test involved opening an old EOF project, that's quite possibly why you didn't see proper results.

#34 raynebc

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Posted December 23, 2016 - 12:22 AM

The next EOF hotfix will have the new MIDI export timing logic. For each converted time stamp, it determines if it's a grid snap position, ie. if it can be defined in terms like: 3 beats + (2 * 1/8 beats) based on the project's tempo map. If it can be defined in such a way, it is converted to delta timing like this:

3 * TIME_DIVISION + (2 * TIME_DIVISION / 8)

This should mean that grid snapped notes will always be written to MIDI with a quantized delta timing, because there is no rounding error that can happen (at least with the time division of 480 used by Rock Band charts) since this is all integer math and floating point isn't used. Please give this new logic a try, I certainly want to make EOF as good of a Rock Band authoring tool as I reasonably can so the MIDI can be fed to Reaper more seamlessly.

#35 mb1nightmare

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Posted December 23, 2016 - 12:34 AM

It is really cool to see raynebc himself willing to clarify some things! :D

I would probably write some detailed feedback and suggestions to send you via PM in the next weeks, if you don't mind...

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#36 Alternity

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Posted December 23, 2016 - 12:53 AM

This is actually nice news. If this quantitizing methods works I might actually use EoF more often for RB. There are things that are just easier done on EoF (I really like the feedback controls).

 

I'm wondering; does this also works on unregular grids; like 1/20 for quintuplets; etc?



#37 raynebc

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Posted December 23, 2016 - 06:59 AM

That new hotfix is up.  At the moment, the logic only runs for the built-in grid snap positions EOF supports (1/2 beat, 1/3, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8, 1/12, 1/16, 1/24).  I could probably add logic to support any interval that divides nicely into the time division (ie. 480), but I'd like to see if this new approach stands up to user testing before I expand it.



#38 raynebc

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Posted December 27, 2016 - 08:51 PM

The next hotfix will be much more thorough and instead of just supporting the built-in grid snaps, it uses the new logic for any number of grid intervals per beat from 2 to 96, as long as the time division is nicely divisible by that number. If it's not divisible, or the position can't be matched, EOF will fall back to the old conversion method. This should just about guarantee that any note that can be written with a nicely quantized value in MIDI will be.

#39 raynebc

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Posted December 29, 2016 - 07:23 AM

That hotfix is up.  Unlike the previous hotfix, it also handles time signatures properly.






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