27 replies to this topic

[nineteenforever]

Rant Incoming.....

 

I haven't played the game, I have seen some videos, I get the gist, the graphics are lovely and the gameplay looks tight.

 

Also, I love Harmonix, they are as amazing of a developer that any gamer could ask for (assuming they know about customs and allowed it? that's cool in my books), and have probably put up with a lot of shite from some of their fanbase (oh the irony) despite always doing their best to make us happy.

 

However....

 

Rock Band 4.

 

Well.

 

This isn't a rant about the game per se, just some things which are occurring as a result of this games development and subsequent release (it's been boiling up with every dlc release and now knowing I won't be able to belt out "Chandelier" on RB has tipped me over the edge)

 

Most people can probably see where this is going.

 

The frustration I'm having is focused mainly around the new dlc being released, plus the songs included on disc for RB4.

 

My issue is I want some of those songs. But I wouldn't be frustrated if I could find a reason other than MONEY MONEY MONEY as to why I can't have them.

 

What vexes me the most is that I know why they won't release those songs in the old Music Store yet I can't stop asking myself why tf they wouldn't. And I can't stop getting pissed about it 

 

Is anyone else out there annoyed and confused about RB4 and Customs having to co-exist? 

 

It is a selfish outlook I know but I really wish things didn't always have to be about making money. I wouldn't label myself as one of those anarchy types but MY GAWD I can feel the deep anti-Capitalism angst within me.

 

Please someone console me 

 

Also some other things I'd like to discuss is the quality of the RB4 DLC (saw a definite missed snare note in a video) and the future of C3? Because I know (think) that HMX said they were letting it go on but I worry that either C3 will be quashed into only being home to the most obsure artists or it will be closed altogether.

 

Yes this post was melodramatic and OTT but I am serious about my points.

[TheSheepQueen]

I know I might sound like that old person that complains about the same thing since years, but I really really miss the keyboard...

The game looks really good and the freestyle solos got me really hyped, it almost made me wanna get a PS4 with the game for my birthday.

The problem is that having played the pre-RB3 era games, I've got used to deal with no keyboard in songs like Clint Eastwood or Smokin', but they were only a few in the middle of a big library.
Rock Band 3 was my first Rock Band game, I was playing Phase Shift and Guitar Hero before that. So I was introduced to the pro keys function and decided to give it a try after buying the pro keyboard. I came to remember I had an actual keyboard I didn't use much and said "Hey I could do something...". DLC was over since almost a year but I discovered the C3 community, and RB3 became my keyboard teacher, and gave me the skill to start my own productions. But now it's different...

I could have got used to the lack of keys, as I understand the "back to core experience" thing, but I see Soooooooo many new songs that features no guitar, and is instead a wannabe 5-lane keyboard played on guitar, and everytime I see DLC such as Chandelier or Sorry, the only thing coming through my mind, instead of "Cool, more diversity!" Is "Such a lack of potential..."

The point I am making is that the keys were the perfect mix between a more challenging way of playing the game and a great way to respond to those saying that playing with plastic instruments is not fun.

Apart from that, yeah I really like the game and the Rivals expension looks dope, but I am not in a financial situation that could allow me to buy a new console, which would only be for this game at the moment!

[Farottone]

Are you suggesting the people who work for Harmonix do it for free? I'm not sure how can anyone complain about the fact that people ask for money in return for their time being spent to produce something.

[nineteenforever]

Are you suggesting the people who work for Harmonix do it for free? I'm not sure how can anyone complain about the fact that people ask for money in return for their time being spent to produce something.

 

Nooo I mean I want to purchase them from the Music Store, but I know that they would never do that because it would de-incentivise the buying of RB4. At least I think that's why they haven't released them for the old Music Store. It can't be a technical limitation because I know for a fact that the song's are made in the exact same way, with the exact same software. 

[Storm360]

It costs an awful amount of money for Harmonix to release a song on PS3 and 360, even if the overall files are the same, you still have to run QA on each build, submit the content to Microsoft and Sony, pay certification fees, and wait for it to pass, if it fails, you have to start this whole process again. It's way too much effort considering Harmonix can't legally sell RB3 anymore.

Also, Harmonix really don't want us to be sticking with our customs, lots of people see customs as a replacement for DLC causing them less sales... Personally I'm fine with having my X1 setup for newer songs and 360 setup for customs but most people probably only want one.


Another big one too is the Xbox One stems haven't been cracked yet, unlike the 360 where people have been able to record them freely for years, stems leaking is a huge issue for these games, and makes it a lot harder for Harmonix to license some tracks. If they can prove that the stems are safe, it allows them to license more/cheaper/easier

[nineteenforever]

Isn't it the exact same process for RB4 though?

I don't know anything about licensing or anything but it sounds like a crock of shite.

I mean fair enough with the likes of GTA splitting current and old gen content-wise, that move made sense.

I'm not happy about Destiny cutting content out of old gen, but whatever, it's just the same shooty shooty bang bang shit anyway.

But Rockband I mean, the songs are literally the flippin same. I get that there may be licensing issues but it just looks like they thought "damn we gotta tease these old gen guys with songs".

The thing is, I get a business has to make money - I'm not purporting to be an expert at all, and I know HMX has been significantly diminished but the way I see it is developers, publishers, businesses in every industry can make decisions that are either:

A. Sustainable and customer friendly

B. For maximising profit.

In the gaming industry, in the past few years, I've seen a HUGE increase in decision that whiff of the latter, and this is one of them.

[Farottone]

Isn't it the exact same process for RB4 though?

 

No, he just explained perfectly how releasing content for RB3 would mean doing more work on their part. You're thinking authoring, which is a portion of the costs. QA and relationships with first party are a big chunk of the costs too. And it would be for a game they can't even invest a dollar in for marketing because of previous agreements.

 

I think everybody here would want RB4 content on RB3, but unfortunately that is outside the scope of the project Harmonix has taken on. This is not different from the pro keys issue: not only it would have costed more money than they could make, but it also was outside the scope of the project. It sucks for those who like pro keys and/or want RB4 content on RB3, but to pay wages you need to make money, and they projected they wouldn't.

[nineteenforever]

Well I was thinking what were the actual differences but I get it.

As far as wages go, see the "sustainable and customer friendly" business choice argument.

Personally, I've just spent about £120 on the music store yesterday, because I want a shit Ton of awesome music right in one spot.

And whoever makes their projections needs shaking, because they gravely overestimated the sales for their new game, hence the current troubles (admittedly for MadCatz, but still).

They copped out. Of course they did, no need to shaft your fanbase just to make more money, sick of developers and publishers doing it.

Like I was saying before, there are "nice" developers, and there are developers.

They could've been "nice" and gone the extra mile, since you know, millions of people (probably) poured money into the rhythm genre over the years, everything remained nice and backwards compatible, and all was good in the world.

Then nope and they spoil it all right at the end.

I hear youse, I do, I hear them I've heard their reasons, but it was doable, was it not?

Of course they dont owe us shit, but it's all about the gesture. I feel like people are being made out to be suckers all the time. I'm not normally arsed about it, because there's no point - not gonna change anything. But this one got new riled.

I think I need a pc gaming binge. You know, it's a dreamland, with lots of indie developers and sales. It's a rad concept.

[TrojanNemo]

 

It can't be a technical limitation because I know for a fact that the song's are made in the exact same way, with the exact same software. 

 

Please do tell how you know that for a fact. I mean, they're not using the same engine, so Magma and MagmaCompiler are out of the question, at least as we know them. They're doing things that weren't done before...maybe they require additional tools not used before or modified old tools. But no, I'm sure you're right and it's *the exact same way* just with different output somehow.

[nineteenforever]

Saw a video of them making songs in Reaper with the same plugins and everything. I might be wrong anyway but let's be honest it's not going to be radically different - there'd be no need to reinvent the wheel.

So sorry, not *exactly* the same way. My point is I don't see how porting could be that much of a faff. Anyway, I was going to say I'd gladly pay double, or even triple, I just want all my songs in one place - it's not a money issue, I'd pay for the trouble.

[Storm360]

I assume you're talking about the old RB4 announcement video where they are using Reaper and C3s Doc's to author stuff?

They were authoring Rise of the Fenix as RB3 DLC in that video

I'd love for RB4 DLC to work with 3, I love Blitz, it makes me kinda sad that RB4 content can't be played there, It would also make things easier by having RBN songs that I've grown to love being available in the same place as the new stuff, but at the same time, I don't expect any support for my 5 year old game that they can't legally profit from anyhow. I certainly don't consider it shafting the user base

[Farottone]

And whoever makes their projections needs shaking, because they gravely overestimated the sales for their new game, hence the current troubles (admittedly for MadCatz, but still).

 

So what you're saying in short is that you know their numbers and their market better than their CFO. Sure, makes sense.

[nineteenforever]

That's a good point storm, Yeh it was that video, this was just one of those things that irked me, it was a futile gesture I know but I wanted to see if other people were a bit irritated by the fact that customs were starting to face a hint of opposition.

I think tbh if RB4 was handled a bit better, and if all songs could be easily ported, then it wouldn't be such a bitter pill to swallow, and if it had keys... And....

It is of course kind of a WIP, I know they plan to update it over time, at least with that then when I get it in the future it should be a bit better.

And although it being an old game is a good point I do wonder if this is almost a form of planned obsolescence. Because RB3 left a bit to be desired Yeh, but it was perfectly functional, and was thriving thanks to this community. It breathed new life into it and it was doing fine on its own. It was this scenario which made the announcement of RB4 a bit of a bittersweet almost, it's kinda weird.

[nineteenforever]

 
So what you're saying in short is that you know their numbers and their market better than their CFO. Sure, makes sense.

Uhhh, nope, I was just having a subtle jab at the accuracy of their estimates because you mentioned them not wanting to make additional RB3 Dlc because they "estimated" it would not be profitable. Obviously they had issues with MadCatz not selling as much as they estimated.

You'd make a great lawyer Mr. Tone ;D

[FujiSkunk]

Whose estimates are you referring to, though?  Harmonix has stated they're happy with RB4's sales.  It's been Mad Catz, not Harmonix, that claimed sales were below expectations, and now it's Mad Catz, not Harmonix, in danger of going bankrupt.  Harmonix I'm sure would have liked to have seen even bigger sales, and we all would have liked to have seen a more complete game at launch, but given the fact Harmonix is still afloat, still working on the game and promising new hardware with a new manufacturing partner, I'd say they're doing well enough.  I would even bet they're doing better than they would have continuing to release DLC for a steadily shrinking fanbase playing on consoles at the end of their market lives, clinging to a game with expensive features the majority of players just weren't interested in.

 

I would say be happy that the company has found at least some way to stay in business while supporting some form of your favorite game, even if you have decided the game's current form is not for you.

[Bansheeflyer]

I'm sorry sir but you stated a perfectly logical argument with valid points and external references and that's not allowed, so I'm gonna have to ask you to stop.

 

[nineteenforever]

Hahahaha, banshee knows.

My point is, normally that would be the case, but in this extremely unique and rare circumstance, it is a bit of a speedbump.

When RB4 was first released that was exactly my thought - awesome.

But then it quickly became apparent that for now at least, the game was not perfect and complications have arisen regarding the world of customs and ongoing dlc co-existing.

What started as a very minor concern has evolved into a bit of frustration, and I just wanted to post to see if anyone else was feeling the same.

Of course then though you get this weird situation whereby a developers efforts to keep a much loved franchise alive are now clashing with a community's efforts and it's quite a bizzare situation and I certainly don't know quite how to feel.

I think, since C3 is so organised, centralised and the quality of the customs so standardised, that I felt more comfortable before rockband 4 released, because there was a steady flow of amazing quality dlc, done by cool people and it can all be discussed and everything. That was pretty cool.

Then on the other hand, if none of this had existed, RB4 would just be another sequel that everyone could buzz about and that'd be it.

That would be a crazy alternate timeline though damn

I feel like even though everyone knows it, they are just ignoring the fact because it's a bit shocking to complain about something like this, and it is, of course it is - I don't really have an argument - there's nothing anyone can do about it, and I think the futility of the situation is what causes most frustration tbh.

What about if customs were more high profile and popular? I feel like if almost every RB player knew about them at the time of RB4's sale there would've been a dramatic difference in sales.

And it's thinking like that that, although it's already been released, and HMX are afloat, has got me wondering if they'll let customs live too.

I know you guys been in this game a lot longer, and it will still have some more life in it yet - I think maybe because I haven't really done charting a lot before it's a bit more difficult to swallow.

Plus the reasons like I the style of game - I didn't really think a rhythm game needs better graphics or things like that (that said, I think it really does look gorgeous - despite others opinions), but those arguments don't really seem to stand up because it's almost part of a rose-tinted view of the world, when in fact things do move on and change over time - whether we like it or not.

If there was a way to plug in my old hardrive (customs n all) into an xbox one I'd be happy as shit, but knowing that'll never work it's just completely split everything RB-related for me, and you guys.

I didn't think I'd be the only one in this though, I feel like if they knew more about customs, and more people used them, and enough people made a point about it, they might have had to release backwards dlc - if they could do backwards packs, and compensate for the extra effort/licensing, and enough people would buy them obviously then it would be profitable.

No I don't really think that would happen.

All in all, I'm not really as bothered about it as it comes across, I just wanted to share to see if anyone else was maybe tasting the bittersweet that RB4 for us. I understand it comes across as entitled - there wasn't really a way it couldn't - but sometimes it's better to at the very least voice a concern rather than just let it slide because you don't want to "make a fuss", and this wasn't supposed to be a "I HATE RB4" post, even if I was getting a bit pissed/worried at the time hahaha 😅

I appreciate all the responses


FujiSkunk Yeh I couldn't remember the details, I think it was hardware sales that flopped, and there was a shortage of legacy adapters (so clearly the resistance to buying new hardware is real for the RB community), it was just a quip, I figured the person who estimated RB's new hardware sales was not the same person who decided legacy DLC would not be profitable.

And if course I'm happy that the developer is still alive and I'm stoked they have brought out a new game (that's the "sweet" in the "bittersweet"). It would be an absolute tragedy for HMX to cease to exist after RB3, they deserve to prosper more than most developers in this age.

And it's not that the current game is not for me, just that the current game is going to effect, however slightly, an enjoyable experience I already have.

[nineteenforever]

Holy SHIT it didn't look like that much writing on my phone I swear.

I am so sorry 😐

[FujiSkunk]

You're passionate about the platform, you're disappointed in how RB4 has turned out, and you're worried how RB4 will affect a community you're also passionate about.  That's fair.  You're definitely not alone in those feelings.  Having said that, Harmonix's situation is understandable, and so is how they've conducted themselves so far.  Nobody's perfect, and RB4 especially ain't perfect, but there has been nothing boneheaded about Harmonix's quest to stay alive and relevant while also doing what they can to support their most popular title.

 

And remember this: customs and official DLC were never supposed to coexist.  Everything about customs has been something of a miracle: the fact that they can exist at all, the fact that they can be played on unmodded hardware (unmodded XBox 360's, at least), the fact that former Harmonix employees have given kudos, the fact that current Harmonix employees have even embraced the community (delicately and tacitly to be sure, but still), and then especially the fact that a group of people like C3 decided to create both customs and authoring tools that are as good as we've seen... really none of that should have happened.  And everything we have so far, and everything we'll get until either we all lose interest or Harmonix gets sold to some sue-happy venture capitalist, we'll still have all that at the end of the day.

 

You'll have to pardon me for sounding like the old curmudgeon I'm steadily turning into, but in this case these words really are apt:  Be thankful for what you have, and stop worrying about what you don't.

 

 

 

PS - Sorry, Banshee, I'll try to spew more hyperbole in the future.

[nineteenforever]

Yeh you're right, in the end of the day they are simply demonstrating good developer behavior - it's just the gaming anomaly that is customs that has created the situations. 

 

About RB4 though, well, I don't really dislike the game at all - it was just what the game meant for customs.

 

Honestly, on it's own, it''s really exciting. Because I know they will keep updating it and personally think as far as a standalone RB goes it'll easily be the best a RB game has ever been. It isn't right now, but thats not the point. Got buttloads of potential which it will in time fulfill, so that's fine.

 

Literally, the only thing that upset me was my hopes of having the absolute ultimate collection of DLC have been dashed, because they are releasing great songs. At first I hoped it'd just be some stuff I didn't like, but as more time has gone on they really have smashed it with dlc this time around, and I'm gutted I won't be able to have them all in my one collection.

 

And then I flipped out about them copping out because they didn't legacy release DLC, but I know why really and of course they haven't screwed us (at least not deliberately). But obviously that didn't stop me being annoyed bout it.

 

I wanna thank everyone for their responses, I made the post to try to connect with others about their concerns regarding the impact of RB4 on C3 (not to whine about RB4 because however bad people think t is, it's only gonna need time to get better).

 

I didn't get quite the response I thought I would, but I guess no ones gonna join you if you are just gonna bitch about stuff, hahaha