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Discussion: "Buried" Keys/PK parts


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As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

 

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.

 

+1 to this suggestion

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As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

 

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.

 

Personally I would see no value in investing a lot of time in understanding what happens in a muddy mix to release an incomplete version. Also, I would see no value in them because you are still just adding those few notes you can hear and it's just not realistic. The songs I'm thinking of have piano, the piano player is playing a full part but the mix drowns most of it. You would be playing some flourish that was brought up in the mix and the occasional chords that pop up when guitar, bass and vocalist subside. Obviously any author transcribing exactly what can be heard does the best they can and that would make for a proper C3 release (the above is just a personal position), but it's still not what you can do with stems.

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As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

 

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.

 

We do have a provision for this, but this isn't the category of song we're talking about.

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I have to say, the more I listen to songs we won't release because of keys, the more it's clear that the issue is just complex piano parts. Imagine authoring a Billy Joel song without stems and having to transcribe it by ear. There are people who get paid and who probably would have a very hard time doing it with stems, imagine simple fans of the game with no stems, not getting paid and probably without the skills of somebody who transcribes music for a living.

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As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

 

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.

 

+1 to this suggestion

 

These are exactly my thoughts. If a full pro-key release isnt possible, I would be more than happy with a 5 lane key part.

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I'd say if the keys cannot be charted accurately without stems, or there are only a few measures where keys are audible (or actually being played at all), don't worry too much about it.

 

I feel if it's too difficult to hear to accurately chart the key part, and the odds are that it won't ever be to a point where its truly accurate, then there's no point in bothering holding the song back to finish that.

 

My vote: release the songs where keys cannot be accurately charted either with the key chart 'as is' or without the key part entirely. No point in having the community have to miss out on songs where it's improbable that the keys would be finished accurately.

 

These are exactly my thoughts. If a full pro-key release isnt possible, I would be more than happy with a 5 lane key part.

 

I also agree with this.

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As a pro keys charter and primarily pro keys only player, here are my thoughts:

a) If it has a prominent keys part, it should be charted, even if it's hard to make out.

B) If there are only certain parts in the song that are hard to hear (due to other instruments or vox usually), I'd still chart it to the best of my ability, willing to fudge a little bit based on the key/other parts/etc.

c) If it's not prominent or interesting any time in the song, I wouldn't bother. Maybe if it's a popular or highly regarded song, for completion's sake, but personally I don't download or chart songs that don't have prominent keys anyways.

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personally I don't download or chart songs that don't have prominent keys anyways.

 

That requires knowing a song beforehand in detail. Or you can use MIDI Analyzer to see note density for any or all instruments ;) Just throwing this out there for anyone who is on the same boat.

 

As a pro keys charter and primarily pro keys only player.

 

Thanks for your contributions to the Beatles project. Now get back to work and do some more Beatles songs, you slacker. :P

 

 

On a separate note, this discussion is clearly more of a "this is my personal view based on my personal tastes and what matters to me, not so much taking into account the community at large." And that's not a bad thing, obviously we care more about what we personally like, and it's difficult to think of that within the context of everyone else out there. I'm just starting to wonder how helpful this kind of feedback is as far as making a decision that impacts others that aren't voicing their opinion.

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I'm just starting to wonder how helpful this kind of feedback is as far as making a decision that impacts others that aren't voicing their opinion.

Perhaps someone could create a poll? :confused:

I don't play keys (or chart them - yet), so I hadn't chimed in. It's hard to know what the community would want as a whole - I thought this thread was here for folks to whom it concerned to lay out their thoughts so C3 could get an overall "feeling". I had no feelings except that those of us who don't care so much about keys were missing out on unreleased customs because of keys issues.

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Yeah the poll is out there. What I meant was this post specifically seems to contribute little to the raw data I presume the admins are looking to collect and make a final decision on, given how most of the thread has been about tangential conversations and personal preferences, and not directly answering the question to be answered.

 

Obviously I'm on the boat of releasing them without Keys over never releasing them. And I would like to see this discussion come to a decision and not become an open ended discussion that never ends, even if the decision is to continue as we have been and not release "incomplete" songs at all.

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That requires knowing a song beforehand in detail. Or you can use MIDI Analyzer to see note density for any or all instruments ;) Just throwing this out there for anyone who is on the same boat.

Yeah, I go by a combination of keys difficulty, knowing the song, seeing the preview, or sometimes genre.

 

Thanks for your contributions to the Beatles project. Now get back to work and do some more Beatles songs, you slacker. :P

Hey, I've been on vacation! And Baby You're a Rich Man took a while... But yeah, I'm a slacker too. :P

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I know it's been a long time since this thread was made, but I thought I should share my thoughts on the matter.

 

If a song has a prominent keys part, then suddenly gets hard to hear, I think it's worth trying to figure out. I'd rather have 40% of a song 100% correct than have 0% of a song playable. But it's all very subjective and you're constantly second-guessing yourself, so it's not always a fun task. I get that charting these types of parts can feel needlessly tedious. But where do you draw the line on which songs you cut and which songs you don't?

 

Imagine authoring a Billy Joel song without stems and having to transcribe it by ear.

 

It might not be easy, but in this situation, keys are a must. People look forward to playing Billy Joel on keys. He's the piano man. It's kind of his thing. Besides, if the piano gets too muddled, we have the liberty of charting horns or strings in its place.

 

Basically, this all comes down to abuse of the rule. I don't want to see people scrimping on the pro keys part because it was a little hard to hear in the verses. Allowing this rule opens the floodgate of ambiguous cases, and I don't want to see C3 releasing a bunch of almost-full-band-but-we-got-lazy charts. Fun for the majority of players, I'm sure, but not so fun for the keyboardist sitting around waiting for the next song to start. We have enough of that already. Besides, what makes keys so special? Let's say the tables are turned, and there's prominent keyboard with muddled guitar. Not so uncommon for, say, Arcade Fire. Yet if you axed the guitar chart of

, people would complain. This begs the question, would there be a situation where it's acceptable to lose the guitar entirely? I imagine so, but it would have to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. I think keys should be treated the exact same way.
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  • 3 weeks later...
Obviously I'm on the boat of releasing them without Keys over never releasing them. And I would like to see this discussion come to a decision and not become an open ended discussion that never ends, even if the decision is to continue as we have been and not release "incomplete" songs at all.

 

On this note I have to ask if the major C3 authors have came to a consensus on this topic, or is this an on going debate behind the scenes? I'd hate to hear of songs never getting released because of impossible to chart keys sections. Especially considering a good chunk of our official Harmonix DLC doesn't include keys.

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On this note I have to ask if the major C3 authors have came to a consensus on this topic, or is this an on going debate behind the scenes? I'd hate to hear of songs never getting released because of impossible to chart keys sections. Especially considering a good chunk of our official Harmonix DLC doesn't include keys.

 

Considering, as we said before, that the number of songs we want to do that are in this shape is very very small, I'm not sure any change in policy would be noticed anyway. ;) It wasn't a consensus thing, it was a polling to see what people would want to see. And if people had said "Just release songs with no keys ever, who cares?" we would still have to do what's right because we know our users do play keys. :) My personal takeaway from this is that I won't be releasing songs that a skilled transcriber or pro keys author could do: I understand those songs will never be done but we set standards for ourselves and I don't want to abandon them. I will probably release songs with *piano* parts you can hear and then cannot: with no multitracks, you either fudge the parts you can't hear big time or don't author them, and honestly I don't think it's worth our time to author somewhat approximate parts. But as I said, we're not talking about many songs, less than 1% of the songs I've ever worked on have that issue.

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I think my biggest issue with the keys is the same I had when I first heard key's were coming to Rock Band; Keys sadly seem like an "add-on" to the game.

 

When I heard keys, I thought they would either 1) have to start getting songs specifically for keys (which happened to the RB3 setlist), or 2) they would have to fudge sound-effects and other sounds to keys which happens a lot as well.

 

I personally feel that, on a song with a less important key part, it should not be the end-all to not get keys. If you cannot hear them, and have no proof they are there, don't chart them. It sucks that a lot of songs have keys mixed very low except certain notable parts, which can make charting keys weird sometimes. Certain artists are known for keys, and authors of those should do everything possible to chart these for people (known key songs usually have sheet music available which is a plus).

 

However, if you have proof that the keys exist, you should chart out what can be played. If you make the decision to chart the keys, you don't want the key player only paying 15% of the song.

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