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Discussion: "Buried" Keys/PK parts


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#41 JrMan

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Posted July 30, 2014 - 10:43 PM

If the keys can not be charted without the stems, then release the song without keys.

+1

#42 AddyMilldike

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Posted July 31, 2014 - 12:36 AM

I was actually making that post right before Farottone made his. As soon as I clicked the submit button Farottone posted so thats why it seems stupid and out of my fuckin' mind to make something right after a post like that.


The forums would've warned you and asked you if you wanted to revise your post if someone posted something before you got the chance to reply.

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#43 tails4eva

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Posted July 31, 2014 - 10:22 AM

I think how i always think of it is how rockband "Did". You have to mix Accuracy with "is this song going to be fun to play"

For example i do a lot of POP-ROCK charts and i find myself contatly putting keys where they should'nt i go through the mid i have available and do what i can, but stems are not for every song and songs w/out multitracks i have a lot of issues here, all i can say is work with the Community i know that its a "secret" the releases each week but perhaps have a closed testing of "said" song and see if it should have keys or not, sharing is caring.

#44 tongue73

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Posted July 31, 2014 - 01:16 PM

In regards to songs that have spurts of Keys and huge empty spaces,

I (Drums) play with my wife (Vocal,Keys) and she is not that great at keys. She mostly plays on Medium 5lane. Songs that have keys for only a few moments and huge spaces are not a problem for us. Alot of times if the keys are not that hard, she can do expert and gets excited because we can gold star a song together. There has been a couple songs that we have that will not even let you get to a 4x multiplier on Keys, and it does not diminish her enjoyment of that song.

I know we may be a special case, or in a small group that has someone who plays the lower difficulties on 5 lane keys, but just wanted to say that we do enjoy playing songs that only have sporadic keys.

#45 espher

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Posted July 31, 2014 - 02:01 PM

I think how i always think of it is how rockband "Did". You have to mix Accuracy with "is this song going to be fun to play"


I cringed a bit here, tbh. Accuracy trumps "fun" unless it's hyperaccuracy. Never 'add', only 'subtract', and only after careful consideration.

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#46 crazycoolcat5

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Posted July 31, 2014 - 05:10 PM

I was actually making that post right before Farottone made his. As soon as I clicked the submit button Farottone posted so thats why it seems stupid and out of my fuckin' mind to make something right after a post like that.


The forums would've warned you and asked you if you wanted to revise your post if someone posted something before you got the chance to reply.


It happened immediately AS I pressed the submit button. I also had the post notifier thingy turned off.
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#47 RustySpoons

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Posted July 31, 2014 - 08:45 PM

The beauty of discovering C3 and in particular customs like Elvis and 'The Fox' meant that Rock Band went from being a fun thing to suggest to something people were asking me when they could play it. When friends come to play Rock Band everyone's dying to get a turn and obviously I almost always have to filter out songs without Keys because you want as many people involved as possible. I felt like this was the case for the majority of Rock Band players with it being a social, group thing but I play it alone too and maybe that's the majority. I almost always get more enjoyment out of a song with all 5 instruments - 'The Fox' has been played almost double the amount of 'Gangnam Style' for example. In every case I'd prefer there to be SOMETHING to play on keys and accuracy doesn't really come into it - someone mentioned earlier Keys following Bass and I know having more songs like that would please me but that's just my two cents on it - but I certainly don't want to think we won't see some songs because of worries about accurate charting. I guess my tl;dr was group players tend to prefer to have something to do rather than not feel included, 'cus the keyboard gets the most attention being the 'new' toy in the set.

#48 DBS101

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Posted August 1, 2014 - 11:32 AM

I personally would like to see keys when at all possible, if it isn't too taxing for the charters, just to add to the realism- I don't care whether there are large gaps between the parts (e.g. on Harmonix's release of "Californication", where they keyboard doesn't show up until about 2 1/2 minutes in at least), because for the rest I can just rock out to the song. Or actually sing the vocals.

(Also, I only have a keyboard and playing bass/guitar on a keyboard can get quite taxing. Especially if you're trying to "strum" ridiculously fast.)

But that's only my opinion.

#49 Jusey1

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Posted August 1, 2014 - 12:57 PM

I don't mind having keys but I don't count them as a requirement when getting customs.
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#50 farsight37

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Posted August 2, 2014 - 03:00 PM

As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.

#51 Nightmare Lyra

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Posted August 2, 2014 - 03:30 PM

As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.


+1 to this suggestion

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#52 Farottone

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Posted August 2, 2014 - 03:54 PM

As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.


Personally I would see no value in investing a lot of time in understanding what happens in a muddy mix to release an incomplete version. Also, I would see no value in them because you are still just adding those few notes you can hear and it's just not realistic. The songs I'm thinking of have piano, the piano player is playing a full part but the mix drowns most of it. You would be playing some flourish that was brought up in the mix and the occasional chords that pop up when guitar, bass and vocalist subside. Obviously any author transcribing exactly what can be heard does the best they can and that would make for a proper C3 release (the above is just a personal position), but it's still not what you can do with stems.

#53 espher

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Posted August 2, 2014 - 04:23 PM

As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.


We do have a provision for this, but this isn't the category of song we're talking about.

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#54 Farottone

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Posted August 2, 2014 - 11:59 PM

I have to say, the more I listen to songs we won't release because of keys, the more it's clear that the issue is just complex piano parts. Imagine authoring a Billy Joel song without stems and having to transcribe it by ear. There are people who get paid and who probably would have a very hard time doing it with stems, imagine simple fans of the game with no stems, not getting paid and probably without the skills of somebody who transcribes music for a living.

#55 Hetz

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Posted August 4, 2014 - 06:09 AM

As others have mentioned, if it's not possible to do a fully accurate chart, then don't release the keys.

I am curious, though. In cases where it's perhaps possible to chart a 5-lane version of the keys, but not possible to chart the pro keys version, would C3 be open to that route? It was mentioned earlier in this thread, but I can say that the folks I play with almost always choose 5-lane rather than pro keys, so releasing only one of them could be a way to still keep some (most?) keys players happy without forcing the author to pull his/her hair out by charting pro keys.


+1 to this suggestion


These are exactly my thoughts. If a full pro-key release isnt possible, I would be more than happy with a 5 lane key part.

#56 Gtafan421

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Posted August 4, 2014 - 09:09 PM

I'd say if the keys cannot be charted accurately without stems, or there are only a few measures where keys are audible (or actually being played at all), don't worry too much about it.

I feel if it's too difficult to hear to accurately chart the key part, and the odds are that it won't ever be to a point where its truly accurate, then there's no point in bothering holding the song back to finish that.

My vote: release the songs where keys cannot be accurately charted either with the key chart 'as is' or without the key part entirely. No point in having the community have to miss out on songs where it's improbable that the keys would be finished accurately.

These are exactly my thoughts. If a full pro-key release isnt possible, I would be more than happy with a 5 lane key part.


I also agree with this.
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#57 Erniewan

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Posted August 6, 2014 - 03:44 PM

As a pro keys charter and primarily pro keys only player, here are my thoughts:
a) If it has a prominent keys part, it should be charted, even if it's hard to make out.
B) If there are only certain parts in the song that are hard to hear (due to other instruments or vox usually), I'd still chart it to the best of my ability, willing to fudge a little bit based on the key/other parts/etc.
c) If it's not prominent or interesting any time in the song, I wouldn't bother. Maybe if it's a popular or highly regarded song, for completion's sake, but personally I don't download or chart songs that don't have prominent keys anyways.

Pro Keys charter here!

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#58 TrojanNemo

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Posted August 6, 2014 - 04:09 PM

personally I don't download or chart songs that don't have prominent keys anyways.


That requires knowing a song beforehand in detail. Or you can use MIDI Analyzer to see note density for any or all instruments ;) Just throwing this out there for anyone who is on the same boat.

As a pro keys charter and primarily pro keys only player.


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On a separate note, this discussion is clearly more of a "this is my personal view based on my personal tastes and what matters to me, not so much taking into account the community at large." And that's not a bad thing, obviously we care more about what we personally like, and it's difficult to think of that within the context of everyone else out there. I'm just starting to wonder how helpful this kind of feedback is as far as making a decision that impacts others that aren't voicing their opinion.

#59 Colonel 32dll

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Posted August 6, 2014 - 04:45 PM

I'm just starting to wonder how helpful this kind of feedback is as far as making a decision that impacts others that aren't voicing their opinion.

Perhaps someone could create a poll? :confused:
I don't play keys (or chart them - yet), so I hadn't chimed in. It's hard to know what the community would want as a whole - I thought this thread was here for folks to whom it concerned to lay out their thoughts so C3 could get an overall "feeling". I had no feelings except that those of us who don't care so much about keys were missing out on unreleased customs because of keys issues.

#60 Farottone

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Posted August 6, 2014 - 04:53 PM

Perhaps someone could create a poll? :confused:


You mean like this? :)
http://customscreato... ... spro-keys/




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